Custom Tilesets in Lemmix?

[Dullstar]

Just to clarify things a bit:  this does not mean VGASPECX.DAT files.

I'm wondering if there is a way to create a new tileset that could be used in Lemmings.
If this is possible, we could possibly extract tiles out of VGASPEC levels, and use them in our own custom levels!

[ccexplore]

VGASPECx files contain the terrain for one entire level as a single giant bitmap, so it might be tricky to try to "extract" tiles out of it, but feel free to try.

The format for Lemming's tileset files are well known, so theoretically it would be possible to create a new tileset, but there are no tools right now to do so.  But if we're talking Lemmix only, it would probably be easier if Lemmix supports a new file format for custom tilesets.  Advantages would include no need for specialize tools to create tilesets (you could just have one or more bitmap files for the graphics, and a text file containing information mapping tile numbers to bitmap files), and ability to support 24-bit colors (ie. no longer limited to 16 colors as in Lemmings).  Basically something like how Cheapo does custom tilesets (possibly even adopting the very file formats Cheapo uses for custom tilesets).

[Dullstar]

Yeah, I know it would be hard.  Beast of A Level would be a nightmare, because of the detailed terrain bottom.  However, the end result could be worth it.

[The Doctor]

Adopting Cheapo's format would be great, because obviously those styles could then be reused, and there were quite a few I liked. Also, they were very easy to make.

[Clam]

I don't think a tileset extracted from a VGASPEC level being very useful for making new levels. You'd either end up with gigantic terrain pieces (like trees that are as high as the screen), or smaller pieces that look awful unless they're assembled together to form the whole thing (then you end up with the first problem again http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/undecided.gif" alt=":-\" title="Undecided" class="smiley" />). And there's other problems with VGASPECs too, which I mentioned in the "sad lemmings physics" thread.

[EricLang]

The format for Lemming's tileset files are well known, so theoretically it would be possible to create a new tileset, but there are no tools right now to do so.  But if we're talking Lemmix only, it would probably be easier if Lemmix supports a new file format for custom tilesets.  Advantages would include no need for specialize tools to create tilesets (you could just have one or more bitmap files for the graphics, and a text file containing information mapping tile numbers to bitmap files), and ability to support 24-bit colors (ie. no longer limited to 16 colors as in Lemmings).

I am thinking/working on this. Maybe we could even abandon the whole idea of tilesets. Why not mix them? The way in which a level is stored could also be changed. Each tile or structure could just be a filename for example.

[Clam]

I very much like that idea. In fact I can't believe I never thought of it. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/XD.gif" alt=":XD:" title="XD" class="smiley" /> That would open up so many possibilities!

[The Doctor]

I agree.

I don't know if you have played the PSP/PS2 version, but you can mix and match the tiles from each style.

Certain objects are dependent on the level's background style (for example, if you choose the Roman background style, the water is water. If you choose the Hell background style, the water is lava, etc.) Then you can add tiles arbitrary of the main theme. Even traps can be added independently (I frequently use the Pink/Marble Revolving Fire Trap in every level I make).

Bit hard to explain, but if you have played either version, you'll know what I mean.

[Tim]

When I made my first tileset that was based on Lemmini files (called Mario World) but still used im Lemmix for level making, I mixed some tiles (the staircase) from the Brick style in Oh No More Lemmings into the tileset.

Here is the example on YouTube (you will need to skip about 1 minute of the video to see it):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rjH1R6YnIE" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rjH1R6YnIE

Unfortunately since Lemmini is not really known to you guys, its probably not very relevant to what you are planning. Still, I thought Id get the message out there just in case http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" /> It just shows that it is possible to mix tilesets into one.

P.S. That level was my first test level, and therefore thrown together, not intentional to be a builder-excessive level.

[The Doctor]

That's not so much mixing however, as just including graphics from one tileset in another. It's still one tileset, in the end, and you are limited to it.

Lemmix uses a nice graphics model, with subdirectories containing graphics.

[Tim]

Oh, then this discussion is different to that. Never mind http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />

[Dullstar]

Beast of a Level isn't all that adoptable, anyways.  Beast 2, however, could probably work with most pieces except maybe the tree.  AWESOME level could be looked at to see if there would be a chance of getting the terrain used in the dragons separated.  The stars will.  Menacing may pose problems.

[ccexplore]

I am thinking/working on this. Maybe we could even abandon the whole idea of tilesets. Why not mix them? The way in which a level is stored could also be changed. Each tile or structure could just be a filename for example.

Tilesets mainly help organize the graphics into groups that make it easier for users to download all the custom graphics they need for particular levels.  You could easily handle mixing of graphics from different tilesets with an organization like this:

• A tileset is simply a subdirectory in Lemmix containing a bunch of graphics files.
• Levels can refer to graphics by the path to the file, something like MyTileSet\terrainpieceA.bmp.
• The Editor lets you pick graphics from any tileset to use in your level, so mixing tilesets is supported.
• Because the path to a file tells you both "what file" and "which tileset", the game can easily figure out all the tilesets a user needs to download for a particular level, whenever there are missing files.  It would be a lot easier than telling the user a flat list of all the individual graphics files they need.

A totally different alternative is to actually embed all the graphics files needed by a level into the level file itself.  The main advantage is that the user will never have a problem with having to download any missing files/tilesets to play a level, since everything needed by the level is included inside the level file itself.  The main disadvantage of course is that it makes the level file a lot bigger, although in this day and age, that might not be too big a concern, depending on how much bigger the level file becomes (hard disk space is most likely not a problem, so it's mainly the impact on how long it takes to download the level file).

[The Doctor]

That's a good idea. Storing just whatever tiles are used would balance well.

Level packs could be one file, as well. Sort of like DOS's blah.DAT files. Then all resources would be in the one file, rather than in many seperate files taking up more space.

[EricLang]

In case of adding the graphics directly into the level: maybe an XML format would be great. I'll play around with this and check the size (compressed and uncrompressed).