Levels that make the Lemmings Physics sad

[Dullstar]

Here are a few levels that are only hard because the game physics interfere.

Pea Soup:  I had to cheat this level in my playthrough because I didn't have the patience to build the stupid bridge AGAIN.  Why did I fail?  Because the lemmings were hitting the water trigger area before they hit the terrain.  Of course, you can't see the trigger area, so you assume that the lemmings WON'T drown, because they should be landing on the terrain, not in the water.  Looks like someone forgot to play-test.

Down, Along, Up.  In that order:  The builder numbers, terrain, and the lemming density create a huge problem:  You have to go WAY out of your way to get the lemmings to build without getting interrupted by the blocks.

Curse of the Pharaohs:  Lemmings waste builders because of most versions having a lack of a direction selector.  Honestly, if you want to beat this level, the solution on Lemmings Encyclopedia doesn't work very well.  The way I found seems to make a bit more sense, easier to find, and easier to pull off.

Know of any others like this?  Post away.

[Clam]

Heh, I like this idea for a thread. Here's a few things that bug me:


Lack of arrow key select (as you just mentioned). In most cases, you can actually work around this if you know what you're doing, but it's still annoying on levels like "Triple Trouble".

Turning builders with blockers. Because the blocker's area of effect lines up with the grids, which are four columns wide, sometimes turning a builder while it is making a bridge doesn't work - even if you wait until the very last moment to block. The worst levels for this are "Down, Along, Up. In that order" and "Save me". Other applications of blockers annoy me for the same reason.

Right one-way walls. "Upsidedown world". Enough said.  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/angry.gif" alt=">" title="Angry" class="smiley" />

VGASPEC terrain. That weird looking obstacle in the middle of "A BeastII of a level" looks like it should be a solid piece of terrain, but because of how VGASPECs work, the black pixels are actually nothing. The terrain on this level is dark, so it's hard to tell what's black and what isn't.

Steel/One-way wall detection with bashers. Most often this works in your favour, but on one level, "And now, the end is near", it means you have to place your builders and basher PERFECTLY in order to pass the level. Which sucks since it's only the 7th level in ONML (excluding Tame).

Mining down to free lemmings. In levels like "Postcard from Lemmingland" and "ONWARD AND UPWARD", you have to place a miner so that the lemmings below can walk up into the tunnel, but the miner doesn't keep going through the bottom of the level. This gives you an area of (I've just checked this) 9 pixels in width from which to start mining, assuming the terrain is flat. That doesn't sound so bad, but when you have to mine a long way, it's very hard to see at a glance where you're supposed to mine from.


Wow, that rant turned out to be a little longer than expected. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />

[geoo]

[...]
Lack of arrow key select (as you just mentioned). In most cases, you can actually work around this if you know what you're doing, but it's still annoying on levels like "Triple Trouble". [...]

As long as there are still lemmings coming out of the trapdoor, this is actually not too difficult to overcome: the last lemming out of the trapdoor that is under the cursor will be selected, so you can just follow one that comes out of the trapdoor, ensure that no later one is under the cursor as well, and assign.

[...]
Mining down to free lemmings. In levels like "Postcard from Lemmingland" and "ONWARD AND UPWARD", you have to place a miner so that the lemmings below can walk up into the tunnel, but the miner doesn't keep going through the bottom of the level. This gives you an area of (I've just checked this) 9 pixels in width from which to start mining, assuming the terrain is flat. That doesn't sound so bad, but when you have to mine a long way, it's very hard to see at a glance where you're supposed to mine from. [...]

In "Postcard from Lemmingland", the terrain is actually shaped in 4x4 blocks, so it's easy to count these to see where you have to mine.
"ONWARD AND UPWARD" is slightly more difficult in that regard, I use cursor measurement in situations like this (i.e. count how often you can place the cursor next to each other vertically, double up that value and measure horizontally).

[Clam]

Yeah, Postcard was probably a bad example, although I remember having difficulty with this one when I first played it (many years ago http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" />). This annoyance can be removed (for custom levels) by placing steel beneath the lower terrain, so that it's OK if the miner keeps going through the terrain instead of falling when it breaks through. If you miss the target then, you've done VERY poorly http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />


Re: selecting lemmings in a group: The last lemming out is drawn over the others, so in a very tight group you can pick this one out even if there are no more lemmings coming out of the hatch. And sometimes you can catch a lemming as it turns around at a wall - if you put the cursor in the right spot, you'll always get a lemming facing away from the wall.

Also, in some cases you can use a builder at the start when there are few lemmings around. When the place gets crowded, you'll have lemmings walking over the bridge one way, and under it the other way.

[LemSteven]

Right one-way walls. "Upsidedown world". Enough said.  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/angry.gif" alt=">" title="Angry" class="smiley" />

That is probably one of the most annoying glitches in the game.  Fortunately, my solution has an extra basher in the end, so I can start mining early and then bash when the lemming is even with the ground on the right.

One thing I hate is when two lemmings are in the exact same place.  That makes it impossible to choose which of the two lemmings you want to assign a skill to.  Instead, the game chooses the one who entered the level more recently, which is almost invariably the wrong one.

[Dullstar]

Right one-way walls. "Upsidedown world". Enough said.  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/angry.gif" alt=">" title="Angry" class="smiley" />

I had to use Lemmings Encyclopedia for that one.  It was quite annoying.

Just out of curiosity, has anyone else had to cheat a level that they would have beaten had the trigger areas been just a few pixels lower, because the trigger area gets in the way of the terrain?

[ccexplore]

Just out of curiosity, has anyone else had to cheat a level that they would have beaten had the trigger areas been just a few pixels lower, because the trigger area gets in the way of the terrain?

I never run into this personally, but after looking at "Pea Soup" in Lemmix with the trigger areas shown, I can clearly see how the trigger area issue render the middle pea almost unusable.  I think when I played this, I just end up skipping that middle pea (build over it and use the next pea as the pit stop), so ultimately it wasn't a problem for me.

From looking at the DOS game's programming, the way they calculate where to place the trigger area certainly does look more like a bug than a feature (the buggy-looking calculation seems to place trigger areas 4 pixels higher than intended).  I'll have to re-check other platforms to see if this was specific to DOS or also present in other versions like the Amiga (although it's possible that on other platforms, they could've compensate for it by adjusting the trigger areas of the objects instead of adjusting the game programming).

[Dullstar]

Just a minute can be really bad on the physics in DOS lemmings.
Changing release rate and x time is a pain in the neck.  I still can't figure out what I'm doing wrong!

[ccexplore]

Just a minute can be really bad on the physics in DOS lemmings.
Changing release rate and x time is a pain in the neck.  I still can't figure out what I'm doing wrong!

There's a better solution for that level than the one given in the Lemmings Encyclopedia:

The key is to make use of that little "room" immediately below the starting platform and immediately left of the big wall.  Have the first lemming bash to the right at the big wall until he's a bit past the little room, then dig down to the altitude of the little room before continuing to bash right, making sure to keep a little bit of the wall to separate the little room from the bash tunnel.  Have the second lemming dig down the thin platform so he and other lemmings all go into the little room.

The idea is that by having the other lemmings wait around in the little room, they stay in a small area, instead of getting more and more spread out if they were to mill around the tunnel the basher is working on.  It eliminates the problem of some of the lemmings catching up to the basher and turn around going left, wasting valuable time before they finally turn right and head towards the exit.

You need to work out the right time to have a lemming in the little room bash through the bit of wall separating the room from the bash tunnel, in order to "release" all the lemmings (and don't forget to increase RR to 99 at this moment if not sooner).  Doing it at the right time means as soon as possible such that when the released lemmings head right, they will catch up with the basher about the time the basher finishes bashing through.

It's also of note that the DOS game actually has a glitch that help you with time-strapped levels like this one.  If you pause the game as soon as the level loads, and wait until you hear the "trapdoor opening" sound effect before you unpause the game, the game will immediately open the trapdoor when you unpause the game.  This gains you roughly 2 more seconds you don't normally have (normally those 2 seconds were wasted waiting for the trapdoor to open).

[Clam]

That solution won't work for part two though. Here's my solution that works for both. (BTW, how did you make the text invisible? I found another way to hide it but it doesn't look as good http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/sad.gif" alt=":(" title="Sad" class="smiley" />)

*SPOILER*

Make the first lemming bash into the wall. The next three lemmings bash when they reach the first one, so they all bash together. When the fifth lemming catches up to the first four, make it dig down 7 pixels and then bash. Turn the rate up to 99. This gets you 100% on both levels with about 5 seconds to spare.




I just remembered something else that bugged me (and another strike against Upsidedown World). Steel objects over bear traps. The really annoying thing is they did this on some levels but not others. For example, "Watch out, there's traps about" doesn't have steel bear traps.

[LemSteven]

I have a modified version of Clam Spammer's "Just a Minute" solution and it has over 10 seconds to spare:

Do Clam Spammer's trick for the fifth lemming with the second lemming, and then repeat it three times at evenly spaced intervals later on.  (Hold down the right mouse button to make sure the walker digs instead of the basher)

[ccexplore]

That solution won't work for part two though.

True, but it was how I solved that level the first time around.  I have always wondered what the intended solution is for Part 2 (the one you give just never quite feels like an intended solution).

(BTW, how did you make the text invisible? I found another way to hide it but it doesn't look as good http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/sad.gif" alt=":(" title="Sad" class="smiley" />)

Just quote my post and you can see all the BBCode I used.  Anyway, I learned this general trick from another forum.  You basically use [color] to change the text color to the fixed background color for quoted blocks of text.  So something like this:

Code: [Select]

User needs to select this text with mouse to read.

(result below):

User needs to select this text with mouse to read.

[Clam]

I have a modified version of Clam Spammer's "Just a Minute" solution and it has over 10 seconds to spare:

What I've presented is a simple solution that works every time. You're starting to complicate matters a little here http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" class="smiley" />. Is that your replay on the Lemmings File Portal, by the way?

...(Hold down the right mouse button to make sure the walker digs instead of the basher)

 http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/shocked.gif" alt=":o" title="Shocked" class="smiley" />
Wow. I never knew that before. Thanks for the tip http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/thumbsup.gif" alt=":thumbsup:" title="Thumbs Up" class="smiley" />

[Dullstar]

There is a glitch in DOS lemmings that lets you change the release rate while the game is paused (F1/F2).  The games seem to try to prevent you from doing that.

There's another glitch that could be useful at times in the hidden text.

I've had much trouble with "Just a Minute:  Part II."
For now, I have skipped the level, but if anyone knows a solution that works, unlike the one on Lemmings Encyclopedia, share it with me and I can try it.

[Clam]

We just posted two solutions. They work every time, for both versions of the level.