custom levels for Lemmings 2 thread

[Clam]

Solved it now (yes, it is v3) http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" />

Yes, the placement of the throwers is logical, but two of them have a very narrow window in which they have to be used. I actually found two ways to handle the ending, but both are tough to execute. Maybe my solution is a backroute?



I'll PM geoo with pics now.

[ccexplore]

two of them have a very narrow window in which they have to be used. I actually found two ways to handle the ending, but both are tough to execute. Maybe my solution is a backroute?

It's true that the intended solution (or at least my solution which was confirmed by geoo to be intended) does happen to have a few skill assignments that are relatively close to one another in timing (but certainly not one frame after another), if that's what you mean.  There may well be ways to make the timing less punishing but I guess geoo didn't find any (or don't want to spend more time on it), and in any event the timing is completely incidental (rather than essential) to the intended solution idea.  Using the keyboard for pausing should help.

It's a little hard to parse based on your description above whether you have an intended solution or a backroute.  I tend to suspect the latter based on your comment about the ending.  Maybe I'll actually revisit the level and see if I can find another way to solve it just for the heck of it http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" class="smiley" /> (so please don't PM me anything about your current solution, just to geoo).

[geoo]

ccexplore's solution to 'Give-And-Take' is indeed intended. Not sure whether I should keep the other solution in though. Kinda interesting how you estimated correctly for both whether they are backroutes by comparing to my usual solution style. I wouldn't know how to myself. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" class="smiley" />

Yep, ClamSpammer's solution to 'Breeze' is a massive backroute. But as it is so different from what I intended, it's pretty easy to fix (hopefully).
The intended solution is not difficult to execute save for, as ccexplore already mentioned, a few assignments close to each other perhaps (but we're all used to pausing, aren't we?).
There are no explicit hints for the thrower placement as they are, well, implicit. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" class="smiley" />

I actually didn't even notice the placement hints in 'Throw the switch' until ccexplore mentioned them, but it was easy enough without as the placement leaves a lot of room for error. The first one is a bit misleading though, as the runner can advance too far before throwing and just jump off the ledge. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />
Nice level though, even though the main concept is directly exposed, it still takes some adapting to get along with the given skill set. Just wonder what the 5th thrower is for, just a backup in case you make a mistake, or have I unknowingly found a backroute?

'What a Twist' is really neat in its conceptual simplicity, with a lot of variation of uses for that skill/object combination; it's just a bit annoying to execute, a little less steel might have helped with that. I haven't really found much use for fan-pausing with the twister, actually; twisting upwards is always the most troublesome task, but at least at 45° it's quite managable without pausing.

[Clam]

Just wonder what the 5th thrower is for, just a backup in case you make a mistake, or have I unknowingly found a backroute?

5th thrower is a spare. I'd guess that in most cases using a thrower in the wrong place would force a restart anyway, but it never hurts to have an extra just in case http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" />

[ccexplore]

Here comes my bumbling attempt at another L2 custom level. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/undecided.gif" alt=":-\" title="Undecided" class="smiley" />  I didn't even really bother to do much in terms of backroute elimination; I guess that would be you guys' job. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />

The title references the unfinished, unpolished-looking left side of the level (the 8?  it's a reference to Schubert's "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._8_(Schubert)" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">unfinished symphony no 8 in b minor"), although the level is in reality quite finished in terms of the solution I'm aiming at. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" class="smiley" />  Visually however...it may well be that if I have time and if it's feasible, someday I may try to remake this in another tribe.

Yes, the exit floating in mid-air is intentional.  It is usable once you place terrain underneath it at the correct height.

The intended solution should not be frustrating to execute, though there may be skill assignments that happen very closely in time.  Feel free to PM me if you have a solution that is frustrating to execute or feels like it requires "luck"; I can at least save you some time if it turns out to be an unintended backroute.  The intended solution is hopefully not too obvious, but it is certainly nothing as obscure as the trick necessary for my first L2 custom level.

[edit: gold means lose 0 lemmings.  As per current convention, valid solution to a custom level means getting gold on it starting with the standard 60 lemmings.]

[edit2: forgot to mention, but no glitches required.  If your solution features any sort of crawling or ClamSpammer's hopper glitch, then it's definitely a backroute (but do let me know if you find something that interesting... http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" class="smiley" />]

[edit3: removed old version of level, see new post]

[ccexplore]

I reviewed my "unfinished" level a little more, and came up with some changes that preserve my solution but makes the visual appearance a little better (gone is the weird floating exit!).

Since no one has yet downloaded the level when I last check, I've removed the old version of the level (titled "Unfinished Level No. 8" if you somehow downloaded it w/o the forum indicating so).  I've attached the new version of the level here.

I've done absolutely 0 backroute testing on this version, so here's your chance to go wild. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/devil.gif" alt=":evil:" title="Evil" class="smiley" /> http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/undecided.gif" alt=":-\" title="Undecided" class="smiley" />  [edit: sorry, but I've just found and hopefully eliminated one backroute.  version v2 uploaded (no one downloaded v1 yet)]  Though if there are really problematic backroutes found, I reserve the option to release the old version of my level.

Again:  gold (aka valid solutions to the level) is lose 0 lemmings, and no glitches required.  You get the exact same set of skills as the old version; I added a few more seconds on the clock because the exit was moved further away.

[edit: since sometimes what constitutes a "glitch" can be arguable, I'll qualify it by saying there's definitely no crawling or use of ClamSpammer's hopper glitch.  Definitely nothing that would defy logic.

However, it appears that the behavior is a little more than meets the eye.  I've added a note below in case you've actually hit what is my intended solution but find that it doesn't seem to be working reliably.  It is coded as a spoiler since it may potentially be a hint to the solution, so it's up to you whether to read it or not (though you most certainly shouldn't read it until you've at least first tried a few approaches on your own):

It appears that despite apperances and my expectation, in the process of doing the moves related to the key part of my solution, depending on how you do it (and there's a smart way and a hard way), one of your lemmings may end up facing either direction with apparently 50% probability, at the moment you assign it a particular skill for which the lemming needs to be facing in the correct direction.  I did not count on that since visually it certainly doesn't look like the lemming is changing its facing direction at all, but I supposed it must be.  If what I just said actually makes sense in the solution you're trying, then you're probably on the right track and just have a bit of bad luck, so don't give up!  If what I said makes absolutely no sense and has no plausibility of happening in your solution, then congratulations (to you anyway), you might be onto a backroute!

]

[geoo]

I found some solution, but I'm not sure whether it is intended or not. There's only one precise move required, but it leaves the rock climber.
Screenshots are attached, solution should be evident from them.

I enjoyed playing this level so far, certainly a variety of paths to think about.

Now I wonder what the original version looked like http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />, as apart from the random trampolines this one is looking pretty clean.

[ccexplore]

Whoops, that's definitely a backroute, though at least it wasn't a frustrating one.

Here's v3.  The change I made to eliminate your backroute was somewhat drastic but I can't think of a more subtle way to eliminate your backroute at the moment.  I also made an additional change unrelated to your backroute, because it turns out the route elimination in v2 doesn't go quite far enough.

[geoo]

Ok, I found a different solution now which might just be the intended one.

Solution should be evident from the screenshots again; coursor is highlighting a lemming before stomping/hopping respectively. These assignments are pretty pixel precise.

Beginning part is a bit messy, but other than that a pretty nice solution.

In my attempts in the previous version I had the last one stomp and land on an arrow, but now having no other use for the kayaker anymore made the landing arrow redundant. Initially I didn't think of fixing the gap.

[ccexplore]

This is not quite my intended solution.  I did some testing yesterday around some of the things you did in your solution, but evidently I wasn't thorough enough, as you still found some locations where certain skill assignments have the desired effect (desired from a backroute-enabling point of view).

Here's v4 which should eliminate the "undesirable" (from my point of view) parts of your current solution.  Good job though with v3 nonetheless. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/cool.gif" alt="8)" title="Cool" class="smiley" />

[ccexplore]

Here's another level for people to scratch their heads over.

Yeah I know, how hypocritical of me, chiding ClamSpammer on his repeated use of Egyptian tribe when this is now my 3rd Sports level. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/undecided.gif" alt=":-\" title="Undecided" class="smiley" />  I guess all I can say is, once you're comfortable with one style in Lemmings 2, it gets harder switching to a brand new style.  And in my defense, for this level, I actually am using objects that are unique to Sports tribe.

Gold requires saving every lemming.  I'll tell you out front that the intended solution does not use every skill given; I purposely threw in some extra skills as a sort of red herring.  However, it turned out that with the extra skills, there's also a lose-1 solution, which isn't a bad solution (though I still like my intended solution way better).  So give yourself a pat in the back if you find the lose-1 solution, and then prepare to go back to square 1 for the true intended solution (which should be very different from the lose-1 solution, unless the lose-1 solution can be turned into a true backroute via some obscure pixel-precise stuff I failed to test).

No glitches required...well definitely no crawling.  The intended solution has some minor behavior that may be slightly counterintuitive in terms of real-life, but not illogical within the lemmings universe.  For example, consider the fact that you can build through a thin platform if you use enough builders.  That is counterintuitive/impossible in real life, but is not exactly what I'd call a glitch.  And that's the extent to which the intended solution may be argued by someone as "glitchy" (I'd say it isn't).

If you're looking for a reprieve from my previous level, I'm sorry, this one will probably be even more difficult to figure out. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/devil.gif" alt=":evil:" title="Evil" class="smiley" /> http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" class="smiley" />  I can tell you however that the intended solution is not a case of you having to pick out pixel-precise locations in order to make moves that mostly fails to work in the majority of nearby locations.  But ultimately there's a little bit of precision involved I guess.  The point is, if you're, say, hunting desperately for locations hoping the rope doesn't break when it's breaking in a dozen variations you've already tried, stop trying, it's not what I'm going for. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" class="smiley" />

The intended solution hinges on the ability of one of the skills, a skill whose extent of its ability you may likely underestimate.  It therefore probably helps to experiment a little.  Good luck!

[ccexplore]

Here's v4 which should eliminate the "undesirable" (from my point of view) parts of your current solution.  Good job though with v3 nonetheless. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/cool.gif" alt="8)" title="Cool" class="smiley" />

@geoo: perhaps it's time for you to read http://www.lemmingsforums.com/index.php?topic=289.msg8456#msg8456" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">my note?  I think the note is written such that if you haven't already been trying stuff relevant to my intended solution, it probably won't be much of a hint.  The reason I made the note is because I worry that you or others may have actually at some point tried some stuff related to my intended solution, but giving up on it too soon because it didn't work out the first few times.  I'll also say that so far you've been heading on the right track.  Good luck! http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" class="smiley" />

[geoo]

I found two solutions to 'Remote Control', one a somewhat glitchy backroute with one skill leftover, and the other one I'm pretty certain to be the intended solution (some skills left over, as you said).
It was a bit troublesome to execute, but idea-wise downright ingenious. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/thumbsup.gif" alt=":thumbsup:" title="Thumbs Up" class="smiley" />
Also very elegantly implemented in the level, with your trademark multiple use of one skill, and a lot of alternatives to consider before actually finding what the level is about.

I'll attach the backroute, but send you what I suspect to be intended via PM, just in case.

I've managed to resist the temptation to use the sports style up to now; it's blocky (i.e. easier to design in) yet nice looking. I sure don't mind now already playing the third one in that style, especially if the levels are magnificient like these.

I had some tries at BBL_v4 when you released it, but the trampolines kinda put me off after a while because they are difficult to predict, to see what's possible and what's not. I suspect it's not supposed to be possible to get a lemming down with a single skill, like I did with the hopper. I hope to get around to having another try later today or tomorrow, and read your note.

[ccexplore]

Huh, well that's an annoying backroute, but good job for finding it. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" class="smiley" />

The solution you send me in PM is extremely close to the intended solution. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/thumbsup.gif" alt=":thumbsup:" title="Thumbs Up" class="smiley" /> Your solution also shows that I probably won't be able to fully enforce my own solution anyway. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/sad.gif" alt=":(" title="Sad" class="smiley" />

So here's "Remote Control (Part 2)", with a slight terrain and skill change that should eliminate the backroute and narrow the set of possible solutions to become somewhat closer to my intended one.  (Though I was also forced to add skills, so there could well be new backroutes...)  I'm not calling this v2 because despite all these alternative solutions you found, they are interesting enough that I'd rather keep them in, making part 2 as a "separate" level instead.  Given how close you got with Part 1, it probably shouldn't take you too long to adapt your solution to part 2.

[ccexplore]

I had some tries at BBL_v4 when you released it, but the trampolines kinda put me off after a while because they are difficult to predict, to see what's possible and what's not. I suspect it's not supposed to be possible to get a lemming down with a single skill, like I did with the hopper. I hope to get around to having another try later today or tomorrow, and read your note.

Ah I see.  Sorry about that, the trampolines were not supposed to be such an annoying element to the level, in fact it was rather a bit of an afterthought.

You definitely do not need to hunt around some magical pixel-precise location to make use of the trampolines, like you did with the hopper.  That said, you don't need any ultra-complicated setup with the left side in order to make use of the trampolines either.  My note doesn't help with the trampolines, so I've put an additional hint below related to the trampolines in case one wants it.

I'm hoping that the fact I shortened the rope on the left, instead of completely eliminating it, would be a slight clue to how the trampolines work in the intended solution.  One single skill (not the hopper) applied to the general trampolines area, with no pixel-precision required, is sufficient to do basically what you did in your v3 solution.

Now the real spoiler:  in the intended solution, after you set up the trampoline area properly with one skill, the lemming simply falls off the left edge of the original terrain to successfully use the trampolines.