custom levels for Lemmings 2 thread

[geoo]

I managed to find a solution to the latest version of your level. It was a bit of a pain to execute though (and to a significant extend the retarded stacker physics are to blame. Why don't they line up by default?)
It isn't possible to shave off one of that certain skill, so I suspect my solution differs from yours (which I don't have a clue about yet what it might be.)

And yep, you found the intended solution to my level.  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" />

[ccexplore]

I managed to find a solution to the latest version of your level. [...]

Well it's official:  I don't think I can really backroute-proof my Insane Steve birthday level in any acceptable way http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/XD.gif" alt=":XD:" title="XD" class="smiley" />, so I'll just call geoo's solution "close enough" in the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treehouse_of_Horror_V#Time_and_Punishment" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">Homer Simpson sense.  The silver lining to this is that since no one has presented any solutions using my ideas (except of course the main one alluded to in the title), I can probably sneak those "undiscovered" side-ideas into future levels instead, hopefully when one least expects it. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/devil.gif" alt=":evil:" title="Evil" class="smiley" /> http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />

At least it was fun making the level, and hopefully it isn't too un-fun to solve.  Happy holidays, and drink responsibly!  (For those who can drink legally of course.....)

[RubiX]

Any chance of seeing a Lemmings2 remake game with all new levels in the future? like we saw with Namida & others from the community ( really great this is )

would really enjoy running through all new tribes levels hehe.

[geoo]

Made a few new levels (actually, I had all but tick1&2 done for a while already, and these were almost done). None of them should be as hard as my previous ones though, or too hard at all.

'Recycling plant' employs an idea that just doesn't really work well in L1; while the idea isn't really difficult to see, I think it's still a nice level.
'Ticking Bomb' 1 & 2 were initially supposed to be only one level, but it didn't really work out as I wanted, and an alternative solution was almost more interesting than the intended one, so I made a second part to it. Overall I'm not 100% satisfied with these...
'The Diver Level'...the name says all. More a test level than anything else.

[ccexplore]

'Recycling plant' employs an idea that just doesn't really work well in L1; while the idea isn't really difficult to see, I think it's still a nice level.

I've only tried this level so far, and I have a feeling I utterly failed to see the level's idea.  I've attached my solution, which did make use of all the throwers and spearers but has 3 jumpers and 1 attractor left over.  Also there were a surprising number of moves that require pixel precision to work out correctly, which I'm taking as a sign that I'm not solving the level the way you intended.  Then again, if the level idea originated in L1, then I'm really scratching my head as to what it could be, that it can be evolved to using all these projectile skills that have no equivalent whatsoever in L1. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/huh.gif" alt="???" title="Huh?" class="smiley" />

Other than the tediousness from the pixel-precision moves, overall it's not a bad level.  I definitely enjoy your use of the "vine" terrain in the Outdoor Style.  Like the crosshatch grid in the Crystal set in Lemmings 1, it's terrain that actually has functional interest as opposed to merely something pretty for the lemmings to walk on.

Perhaps the level will become even more fun once you take out a backroute or two. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />  I'll try your other levels later over the weekend.

[edit: on second thought, maybe this is your level idea, although it's kinda general:

I notice how, at least in my solution, the various pieces of path being built out by balls and spears are done by different lemmings, instead of the typical one-hero-lemming-does-everything kind of solution.  Moreover, you have the case of needing other lemmings to do stuff to help some of your heroes to get to the exit after they did the path-building work.  Like for example, one of the spearer needs some other lemming to throw a ball to make him head to the right after he falls down onto the exit platform.

I can kind of see why this kind of level idea would be difficult to implement in L1.  Anyway, the level is also good in that it presents a few possible general paths to consider, and you have to do a bunch of exploration to find out what works best.]

[geoo]

Yep, you guessed correctly, with all its pixel precision your solution is a backroute. My solution doesn't require any pixel precision at all, just approximately anticipating the arc of stones and spears, but I guess that's common to any solution, considering the skillset.
Still, realizing your route is quite a feat, I didn't expect this to be possible.
The new version hopefully eliminates that though.
I'm glad you already kinda liked this backroutable version, I think you'll like the intended solution even better then.

Yeah, the Outdoor terrain allows for a lot of variety (it's my favourite tribe), it's just a bit difficult to use with the L2 tile matrix level system, where you're limited to the grid and can't overlap pieces (but I think you already experienced that).

I thought the solution idea might be somewhat evident, and this impression was aided by the fact that Simon found the idea pretty quickly, though that was in a preliminary version still featuring archers (which are more flexible to allow backroutes), amongst others. (Yeah, more secret stuff going on in the IRC channel...) I'm glad this apparently isn't so much the case as I thought; what you thought it might be actually applies not as much to my solutions than it does to yours.
The idea didn't actually originate in L1, I just somehow came up with it and didn't find a sensible way to make it work in L1 (though I think it's technically possible, just not as nicely as in L2).

[ccexplore]

Okay, here are my solutions to Recycling Plant v2, Tick1, and Tick2.

Hopefully the solution to RPv2 should be closer to what you intended, although I still don't really see how a L1 version of the level can come about based on my solution, so maybe that's a bad sign. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />

Love Tick1 and Tick2, great way to make use of the pouring object that wasn't actually featured in official levels.  I'm not sure how intended my Tick1 solution is, but it is the first solution I got for that level, and I haven't yet worked out how to adapt my Tick2 solution to Tick1.  One thing that annoys me a bit with these levels is that it seems while the pouring object is active, you can't reliably assign sand-pourer to a lemming.

[geoo]

Oh well, the solution to Recycling Plant you found is precisely what I tried to eliminate when I replaced the archers with throwers and spearers. Your setup seems to be pretty tricky, you both cancel the frog's trigger area to save jumpers and make a starting point for further spearing with the spear near the exit? That's a pretty neat backroute you've got there, I don't think I'd have ever thought of that.
I can't find a sensible way to get rid of this method in general, even if I eliminate this particular setup, there might still be other ways. So I'll try a somewhat ugly fix, hopefully eliminating this kind of solution once and for all.

Haha, you kinda backrouted Tick 2 with the general solution from Tick 1, and backrouted Tick 1 some different way (should have thought of platformers on a slope...). I actually came up with the idea you used in Tick 2 when trying to setup a crawling route for Circus 10. The pouring object was pretty useful for this, however as you said, it has its downsides. Apart from not always allowing to use a sand pourer in an unpredicable manner (in fact, sometimes it works with the exact lemmings positions, and sometimes it doesn't, so I guess it even depends on pausing and fast forward used up to the point), it also pours a bit unreliably, i.e. stopping at times. I guess the original authors had a reason for not using this object. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" class="smiley" /> I also suspect that this behaviour is required due to some internal memory limitation.
I somewhat half-heartedly fixed these backroutes, breaking the continuity between the two levels on the way and giving minimal skills now (Some skills were included to allure to thinking about the possibility of a conventional miner route). The fixes are pretty radical, so I hope backroutes have been eliminated with that now.

[ccexplore]

Oh well, the solution to Recycling Plant you found is precisely what I tried to eliminate when I replaced the archers with throwers and spearers. Your setup seems to be pretty tricky, you both cancel the frog's trigger area to save jumpers and make a starting point for further spearing with the spear near the exit? That's a pretty neat backroute you've got there, I don't think I'd have ever thought of that.

To clarify, this is what I did in my backroute:

The spear is thrown as far to the left as possible within the general area I need it to land.  It actually lands slightly to the left of the frog's trigger area (I think like right next to the leftmost pixel of the trigger area).  So I still need to jump up onto the spear when approaching from the right.  When approaching from the left, I wait until the lemming has moved up onto the column of pixels of the spear that touches the ground, and them jump off from there to avoid the frog's trigger.

If the frog's trigger area is only 1 pixel wide, then yes, I guess I can probably throw the spear in such a way that it lands exactly on the trigger area.  As for jumpers, there's no need to save any:  1 to jump onto the top vine, 1 to jump off it, 1 onto the next platform, 1 down onto the leaf, 1 across the frog's trigger, 1 onto rightmost mushroom, 1 onto middle mushroom (and then you turn around there from a ball you thrown earlier), 1 back onto rightmost mushroom, 1 to the left of frog, and finally 1 more across the frog's trigger again.

Sorry for forcing the radical fixes upon you, I'll now download new versions of your level and see what they've become. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/undecided.gif" alt=":-\" title="Undecided" class="smiley" /> http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />

[ccexplore]

I can't find a sensible way to get rid of this method in general, even if I eliminate this particular setup, there might still be other ways. So I'll try a somewhat ugly fix, hopefully eliminating this kind of solution once and for all.

I didn't find it an ugly fix at all, it's possibly the smartest fix one can come up with to eliminate my backroute with almost no change to the level's appearance.  (Yeah okay, ClamSpammer may disapprove, but then again he has made less L2 levels than even I had, so there. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />)

Anyway, I finally found what I'm fairly sure is your intended solution.  I don't think you needed to worry the solution being too obvious.  Even though I have a feeling from the very beginning that the solution would be something like this, it obviously still took a while (and two backroutes no less) before I worked out exactly how to achieve the desired setup.

It would definitely be an interesting and tricky level-design challenge to make the solution concept work in L1.  Anyway, awesome job with the level! http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/thumbsup.gif" alt=":thumbsup:" title="Thumbs Up" class="smiley" />

I'll try the revised TickX levels later this week.

[ccexplore]

I'll try the revised TickX levels later this week.

Okay, I couldn't resist, and I ended up solving these two levels also.

I have to say, I vastly preferred my backroute solution for Tick2v1 than this new version of Tick1v2, even though both employ the same general solution idea.  In fact, it's downright infuriating executing the solution with Tick1v2, since it really relies on "lucky timing" so to speak, and the game is heavily against you, what with its unreliable inability to assign sand pourers and the pouring object not emitting a consistent stream, making each retry a whole new experience of likely frustration http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/undecided.gif" alt=":-\" title="Undecided" class="smiley" /> http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />.  With Tick2v1, at least I can use one of the skills to make the crowd slightly more manageable for making the solution work out.

I'm not 100% sure whether my solution for Tick2v2 is intended or not, since I did have one jumper left over, but at least it's totally different from Tick1v2, and much less infuriating to execute.

Below's some minor aspects of the solutions that I failed to capture in the screenshots:

In both solutions, I make use of sending a non-climber lemming towards the water, making him swimmer but not rock climber.  I only assign him rock climber after the lemming's already in the water swimming back and forth.  This allows me to quickly get him to do the sand-pouring at the position and direction that's common in both solutions (at least whenever the game's in the mood to allow me that skill assignment anyway...)

For Tick1v2, the solution I ended up executing relies on the fact that when you pour sand on flat ground, after the lemming finishes pouring he will naturally turn around.

[geoo]

Ah, I finally see how you set up your backroute to the previous version of Recycling Plant. I had forgotten already again that you can launch the spear right through the vines, not needing any additional jumpers for that first spear placement.

Yes, you've of course found a solution using the intended idea now. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/thumbsup.gif" alt=":thumbsup:" title="Thumbs Up" class="smiley" /> I'm glad you liked it. The name might also give a slight hint at the solution (it was thought up by Simon, thanks again http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" />).

Your setup is actually a bit different from mine (I use both spears where you used a spear and a stone), but I love how you made the lemmings walk up the slope you created instead of merely turning them around at the top. I also love that you actually used the flinging plant on the hero lemming, never thought of that. My solution can actually be done with two jumpers to spare using this, but I think being a bit lenient giving 10 doesn't hurt either. You did use these 2 for timing at the left, didn't you?

If one were to implement this idea in L1, my idea would be having two groups (one of which cannot be worked with due to walking through a thin tunnel or something), forcing a constant RR (e.g. relying on the last lemming of the group being late enough for something) and allowing no terrain removing skills. One group walks through a trap from the left then, and the other from the right, with no possibility to turn, and each lemming from the group you work with sacrifices himself for exactly one from the other group that just walks constantly, only the latter coming through.

I have to say, I vastly preferred my backroute solution for Tick2v1 than this new version of Tick1v2, even though both employ the same general solution idea.  In fact, it's downright infuriating executing the solution with Tick1v2, since it really relies on "lucky timing" so to speak, and the game is heavily against you, what with its unreliable inability to assign sand pourers and the pouring object not emitting a consistent stream, making each retry a whole new experience of likely frustration http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/undecided.gif" alt=":-\" title="Undecided" class="smiley" /> http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />.

Actually, my solution doesn't rely on any timing at all (only, of course, being lucky that the tube doesn't stop pouring at the important moment [not pausing seemed to bring a good fate for this], and that the sand pourers work when they are supposed to work).
You could have saved yourself a lot of trouble if

you had made the first sand hill on the starting platform only 7 pixel high by pouring nearby the edge so the would-be-8th layer of sand falls down into the pit. Then you only have to wait for the pit to be filled, and have the last lemming of the pack pour after scaling the sand hill to redirect the sand to the left, sending up the entire crowd at the right moment.

Your solution to Tick2 is pretty much intended, only with the minor difference that I climbed out of the pit with on lemming, and in order to be quick enough at getting to the switch, I needed at least one jumper, and I think depending on the tube's mood, using another one was safe to work, unlike using just one jumper. 5 jumpers was only a rough estimate anyway, which I didn't adjust again.

[ccexplore]

My solution can actually be done with two jumpers to spare using this, but I think being a bit lenient giving 10 doesn't hurt either. You did use these 2 for timing at the left, didn't you?

Here's what I did:

I actually jump one lemming from the lower entrance in order to throw the spear+ball for turning around the upper-entrance lemmings.  (Specifically, I jumped the one that would've "merged" with the ball-thrower at the lower entrance.)  In my set up, you end up with 2 lemmings that violate the correct spacing.  One of them you'll use as the hero.  After the hero has thrown the spear that enables the use of the fling-to-exit plant, you jump the other one to send it to the exit first, before completing the path to release the remaining lemmings.

It was somewhat accidental that I did it that way, instead of using a lemming from the upper entrance and 2 spears as you did.  It has to do with how I used one of the spears already in the upper area, which I believe was a holdover from my previous attempts and from the general desire to conserve throwers (as stones can turn lemmings around by themselves, unlike spears).

It only take a few tries now for me to work out your setup with its 2 sparable jumpers, so I don't think it would've made a big difference for me even if you had only given 8 jumpers.

You could have saved yourself a lot of trouble if

you had made the first sand hill on the starting platform only 7 pixel high

Ah.  Wish I had thought of that before pulling out half my hair doing it the hard way. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/XD.gif" alt=":XD:" title="XD" class="smiley" /> Can't really fault you though, as I've tried and failed to find a satisfactory way to enforce your idea without introducing skills (or perhaps significantly modifying the level's terrain etc.) that are likely to lead to additional backroutes, or without simply enabling other ways for a timing-reliant version of the solution.

====================

Before I forget, I also solved your diver test level.  I see that you and ClamSpammer shares the same definition of "test level", which seems to (coincidentally) involve the Egypt style http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" /> and (probably not so coincidentally) slightly tedious, repetitive uses of certain skills in the solution.  I do like the first usage of the diver though.  Perhaps at some point in the future you can combine some of the diver ideas in the test level with other ideas and end up with a better level.

Assign 2nd lemming out exploder at the appropriate time and have him dive off the cliff after 1st lemming falls off it.  His diving will put him left of the 1st lemming out, and since diving goes downward faster than mere falling, you can make it so that the 2nd lemming's explosion will fling the falling 1st lemming to the right at the desired location, where you'd rope to catch everyone else.

As for how to get to the correct location and facing direction to scoop to release the crowd, the main trick is using 3 divers to induce crawling and end up facing the same direction you started out with when you finish crawling up.  Basically, 1 diver into the wall, one more 1 diver in the same direction as before to go even farther into the wall, and 1 last diver in the opposite direction to ensure that you end up facing the original direction after you finally crawl up.  In your level, use the trick 2 times to get over the wall, dive 2 times to skip over the exit trigger in each direction, and use the trick a final time to get back up the wall facing left, so you can finally scoop.

[geoo]

Haha, did ClamSpammer actually explicitely label his level as test level? At least it had a more elaborate name. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" /> The egyptian style is nicely blocky, so perfectly suitable for easy-to-design test levels. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" class="smiley" />

I actually came up with this level after reiterating how pretty much useless the divers are (for non-glitchy use), unless you use them for delay or have the sadistic urge to splat even your floaters (well ok, there are more, as even this level shows with the diver overtaking the faller).
It was supposed to show off various uses of the diver, and not repeatedly the same one. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />
Characteristic to the intended solution is that you only use crawling once, and induce it by using a single diver. Description below in spoiler tag, in case you still want to try; considering it's merely a test level, I don't intend to fix any backroutes:

You actually explode the normal faller, to throw the diver off to the left. Then you rope over the water gap to catch the crowd (which is delayed using divers). Dive through the rope, over the second water gap (jumpers couldn't do that!) and jump into the wall to trigger crawling. Only thing left to do is scooping.

Yeah, I had a quick glance at Tick1v2 as well after you posted your timing-reliant solution to see whether it could be eliminated; thought of using a stacker, but in fear of screwing something up again I just kept it.

Ah ok, I see now how you set up your route for 'Recycling Plant' precisely. So only one of the jumpers was used for timing.
I also removed the bit of grass near the exit to make throwing from there a little easier.

[ccexplore]

It was supposed to show off various uses of the diver, and not repeatedly the same one.

Ah.  That's enough for me to retry the level w/o reading your spoiler.  It didn't take too long to come up with the proper solution, which I guess could be easily enforce simply by reducing the number of divers (my original solution takes at least 12):

In my original solution I shoot the rope upward towards the sphinx.  Now I shoot it downwards and across to left of the pool of water below.  When a lemming walks upward on the rope, making him diver allow him to dive through the rope and he can end up to the right of the pool of water.  Dive to get across the next pool of water, and finally dive to induce crawling, after which you can scoop.

I'm still not reading your spoiler tag in case there's something else I missed but I doubt it.  Definitely a more interesting solution than my first. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/thumbsup.gif" alt=":thumbsup:" title="Thumbs Up" class="smiley" />