custom levels for Lemmings 2 thread

[ccexplore]

Thanks again!  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/cool.gif" alt="8)" title="Cool" class="smiley" /> Are you working on any new levels at the moment?

Well, I had a few little ideas, but I'm not sure I have enough at the moment to put together a level worth playing. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/sad.gif" alt=":(" title="Sad" class="smiley" />  My skills at making levels definitely lags far behind my level solving skills, unfortunately.

One other approach I might try is to take some existing levels in Lemmings 1 (custom or otherwise), remake it in Lemmings 2 in a non-Classic tribe, give it a totally different skillset (w/ many non-Classic skills of course), and see where it goes.

[namida]

Seeing It's Hero Time done in L2 would be interesting... not sure how possible it is though.

[weirdybeardy]

Okay, here's my first attempt at a level for the Shadow tribe.  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" />

[Dullstar]

While I like the ability to edit Lemmings 2, L++ has me caught up right now.

[weirdybeardy]

*shrug* I haven't been doing anything Lemmings-related for at least a week now. Just bumping the thread in case anyone's still interested. A Custom L2 level thread might be a good idea, if there's ever enough support for it. At the moment, looks like there isn't. But no worries.  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/cool.gif" alt="8)" title="Cool" class="smiley" />

[ccexplore]

All right, I finally got the time and inspiration to create a custom Lemmings 2 level that I'm reasonably happy with.  I have to say, level editing in Lemmings 2 can be quite harder than Lemmings 1, with the inability to place terrain at arbitrary pixel positions and the lack of things like eraser pieces.  It's also often harder to see which terrain pieces fit together with what.

If anyone still has interest in this, try the attached level.  It replaces Sports 1.  Gold requires losing no lemmings (ie. saving everyone).  I haven't spent much time in backroute eliminations (because it took long enough to tweak the level to make my intended solution work well), so those of you whose levels I've backrouted in the past, here's your chance to get back at me! http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/winktounge.gif" alt=";P" title="Wink-Tongue" class="smiley" />  In any event, do PM me any and all solutions you've managed, gold or not.  Also feel free to PM me for hints.  No glitches or wall crawling or other logic-defying weirdness needed even for gold, though the intended gold solution does make use of a trick that you might not have seen/used before.

[weirdybeardy]

^I'll give it a try and provide some feedback as soon as I can!  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/thumbsup.gif" alt=":thumbsup:" title="Thumbs Up" class="smiley" />

[ccexplore]

Okay, I think I found a backroute to the level, although it's a solution not obvious enough that I think I'm okay to keep it in the level.  That said, this new possible gold solution (which I haven't confirmed yet) can be kind of tedious to execute, so I've attached here a modified version of my level that hopefully has the backroute eliminated, for those who don't want to be distracted by this other solution.  Again, I stress that I'm fine with people reporting solutions for the original level with the backroute.

[ccexplore]

Okay, here's my first attempt at a level for the Shadow tribe.  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" />

Finally got around to playing this.  Attached's my first successful solution, which as usual is undoubtedly a total backroute. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/winktounge.gif" alt=";P" title="Wink-Tongue" class="smiley" /> http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/undecided.gif" alt=":-\" title="Undecided" class="smiley" />  Still, the level's pretty nice-looking and interesting enough, I'll probably try to find a more intended solution later.

(For those a little confused by the attached screenshots, note that the "!" portion of the traps are actually considered by the game as background rather than steel.)

[weirdybeardy]

(For those a little confused by the attached screenshots, note that the "!" portion of the traps are actually considered by the game as background rather than steel.)

Ahh. Well, I can fix that.  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/laugh.gif" alt=":D" title="Laugh" class="smiley" />

Glad you managed to give it a go. I still haven't beaten the original version of your Sports level, but I'm going to download your tweaked version and see if I can spot the difference, which should help me figure out what the original backroute was.  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/winktounge.gif" alt=";P" title="Wink-Tongue" class="smiley" />

I'm actually gradually replacing all my L2 levels with custom levels, bit by bit - either of my own creation or ones I've downloaded off here. It's fun to think I'm gradually accumulating a "new" Tribes game.  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/laugh.gif" alt=":D" title="Laugh" class="smiley" /> So far I've got 1 Circus, 1 Highland, 2 Classic, 1 Medieval, 1 Shadow, 1 Cavelem, 1 Egyptian, 1 Beach and 2 Sports...

[ccexplore]

Here's a different solution to your Shadow level.  I'm guessing it's not one of your intended solutions, but at least this time around, I'm going around the traps, rather than through them like last time.

[weirdybeardy]

Here's my tweaked version of "You Only Lem Twice". I freely admit that it's a cheap fix.  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" /> This is also my final version. There may be other backroutes, but I'm fine with that. You've got to draw the line somewhere, eh. *shrug* http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" />

[geoo]

All right, I finally got the time and inspiration to create a custom Lemmings 2 level that I'm reasonably happy with.  I have to say, level editing in Lemmings 2 can be quite harder than Lemmings 1, with the inability to place terrain at arbitrary pixel positions and the lack of things like eraser pieces.  It's also often harder to see which terrain pieces fit together with what.

If anyone still has interest in this, try the attached level.  It replaces Sports 1.  Gold requires losing no lemmings (ie. saving everyone).  I haven't spent much time in backroute eliminations (because it took long enough to tweak the level to make my intended solution work well), so those of you whose levels I've backrouted in the past, here's your chance to get back at me! http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/winktounge.gif" alt=";P" title="Wink-Tongue" class="smiley" />  In any event, do PM me any and all solutions you've managed, gold or not.  Also feel free to PM me for hints.  No glitches or wall crawling or other logic-defying weirdness needed even for gold, though the intended gold solution does make use of a trick that you might not have seen/used before.

This is doubtlessy the best level made for Lemmings 2 (well, there aren't many L2 levels up to now, but it is also one of the very best if you take original Lemmings 1 into account)! http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/thumbsup.gif" alt=":thumbsup:" title="Thumbs Up" class="smiley" />
Pretty much every skill serves multiple purposes, and you're miles away from the solution if you just try some regular ideas; pretty much nothing is used in a conventional manner, no filler content at all. Executing the solution is surprisingly convenient, and the only slight difficulty comes right at the beginning, so no retries after you've done half of the level. Simply put, this level is perfect. I'm 100% sure that the solution I found is the intended solution, so no point PMing it to you.
I honestly didn't expect this to work, and I think I dismissed the idea at first, till I worked out the placement of one of the key skills. Later I combined this with the problem I had all the time, and then I realized that this must be the solution to this. Great eye for detail from the L2 developers, and interesting as on the other side of the spectrum I noticed magno booters not being affected by knock-back bombers (or is that intensional, the boots allowing to stick to the ground?).

From your first paragraph, I suppose you also tried this one with other styles first? As the Sports tribe with its blocky simplistic terrain shouldn't make it too difficult to see which tiles fit together (didn't create a level in this style yet though).

I also finally got around to solving weirdy's remaining levels. My solution to "Oot 'n' aboot" is identical to ccexplores (really identical, I first thought my screenshots were just scaled down versions of his), the circus level gave me quite some trouble till I found this solution which I somehow think is a bit ugly. "The Diptych" is pretty neat, though a bit annoying to execute. Seems that my solution there is pretty similar to ccexplore's, though we did the top a bit differently. I wonder whether there's a solution that involves sending the lemmings from the top to the very bottom having them survive the fall by falling into the steam? I also like the shadow level with its more limited skills, though I haven't found a really clean solution to it yet. The one I currently got is a bit ugly...

[weirdybeardy]

Glad you thought my levels were okay. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" /> I know what my shortcomings are and I do consider myself to be a novice compared to you guys. "The Diptych" is the only level I've made that I'm completely happy with. My Shadow level still needs honing even though I said it didn't - I suppose I just can't leave it alone... My Highland and Circus levels were rushed and experimental as I was still wrangling with PCL2ED at that time instead of GuyPerfect's editor, which is why they have "ugly" solutions. A good way of summing up my levels would be "messy"... :-p Whether I want them to be or not, they just sort of end up that way. And puzzles like the superb "Not A Lot To Go On" kind of leave mine in the shade, but I'm fine with that. I'm here to share in the fun as best as I can manage, and that's all, I guess.

I actually meant to suggest that perhaps we could start off a genuine thread for custom L2 levels instead of stringing this one out; its title "Here I Go Again" doesn't really indicate what it's currently about, and a new thread would be easier to find for anyone out there who wants to know... I almost started a thread myself but I wanted to check that it was a good idea first...?

[ccexplore]

I know what my shortcomings are and I do consider myself to be a novice compared to you guys.

Well, I think in some sense we're all novices especially when it comes to L2 levelmaking, given the lack of decent editors until recently.  Your levels aren't all that bad, they might not be all very hard or cunning, but they have potential and are always visually interesting at least. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/thumbsup.gif" alt=":thumbsup:" title="Thumbs Up" class="smiley" /> In any event, my brief experience with L2 levelmaking shows that it really helps to get familiar with what sorts of terrain and objects are available in each style, in order to understand the kinds of things you can make easily or hard to do in each style.  And the only way to get familiar is to make more levels in different styles, so experimental is fine.

I actually meant to suggest that perhaps we could start off a genuine thread for custom L2 levels instead of stringing this one out; its title "Here I Go Again" doesn't really indicate what it's currently about, and a new thread would be easier to find for anyone out there who wants to know... I almost started a thread myself but I wanted to check that it was a good idea first...?

I agree. Actually I was thinking about that too, but Dullstar kinda jumped the gun the wrong way by asking Adam to move the entire thread over.  I would've asked to split it so that instead of dozens of pages of posts about the then-editor-in-development, the new thread would just have the more recent pages on custom L2 levels.

There aren't too many L2 levels and level designers though, so I think we can handle the "splitting" ourselves by starting a brand new thread, then each level designer simply makes a post attaching all the levels they published so far, and then we continue from there.  (Making the level designer do their own post on their own existing levels allow them to update the levels as needed.)

This is doubtlessy the best level made for Lemmings 2 (well, there aren't many L2 levels up to now, but it is also one of the very best if you take original Lemmings 1 into account)! http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/thumbsup.gif" alt=":thumbsup:" title="Thumbs Up" class="smiley" />

Wow, thanks! http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/cool.gif" alt="8)" title="Cool" class="smiley" />  Yeah, I'm pretty happy myself when all the various ideas I have came together like that.  I'm also very happy that at least one person other than myself have now solved the level, I was beginning to worry! http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/shocked.gif" alt=":o" title="Shocked" class="smiley" /> http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/winktounge.gif" alt=";P" title="Wink-Tongue" class="smiley" />

I'm 100% sure that the solution I found is the intended solution, so no point PMing it to you.

From what you've said, and the fact that I haven't come up with any solutions other than my intended and the one backroute for the original version of the level, and no one else has reported anything, I'm pretty confident that you have the intended solution.  If not, then at least an alternate solution I'd probably be as happy with as you are.  Nonetheless, I'll probably PM you a few questions later tonight to better confirm what your solution is.  (That, or you can just PM me whether the "didn't expect this to work" is what I'm thinking, since that's the neat trick I alluded to when I said it's something that's "logical but never been utilized in an L2 level".)

Executing the solution is surprisingly convenient

I guess one good thing about the lack of an advanced playtesting tool for L2 right now is that it forces your solution to be humanly executable. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" class="smiley" />  In other words, it can't be too insane that the level designer himself would've thrown the computer out the window trying to execute the solution himself.

I noticed magno booters not being affected by knock-back bombers (or is that intensional, the boots allowing to stick to the ground?).

It would seem to be intentional, especially given that they don't get knock-back even when they're oriented upright (the only times you can assign other skills to a magno booter).

[And for those still trying to solve my level, no, this fact about magno booters has nothing to do with my intended solution or even the backroute really.]

From your first paragraph, I suppose you also tried this one with other styles first? As the Sports tribe with its blocky simplistic terrain shouldn't make it too difficult to see which tiles fit together (didn't create a level in this style yet though).

Yeah, Sports isn't too bad.  Part of the issue is that different styles have very different characteristics of terrain and especially objects, such as the kinds of traps available and the various sizes of steel blocks available.  As an extreme example, if I recall correctly, the Circus style not only lacks traps of any kind, I seem to recall it lacks water as well.

In the case of my level, I needed some kind of object that's not available in all styles, and the first style I found it was in the Highland tribe.  Unfortunately, while the Highland tribe does have some blocky terrain, they annoyingly come in different colors for different orientations, and after trying it out for some time, I just wasn't too happy with things appearance-wise, so I decided to switch to the Sports style knowing that at least the blocky terrains it offers come in one color.

An example of difficulty figuring out how to fit terrain pieces together is when I was trying to use some of the more "natural" terrains in the Highland tribe to decorate the undersides of the blocky terrain construction, and found myself having to go back to existing Highland levels to get a clue on what pieces should go adjacent with what.  The lack of copy/paste ability in GP's editor didn't help.

Another example of the need for style-awareness relates to presets that are normally meant for background.  I know that some people like ClamSpammer is very vocal about this, so I tried to make sure my terrain usage is consistent with the official game's.  As it turned out, there's an inconsistency with Highland, where that preset of the white dog is background in most official L2 levels, except one (I forgot which, I think Highland 8?).  I wanted it to be terrain not background, and that combined with other difficulties I alluded to above was what pushed me to try a different style.  For Sports, I run into the opposite difficulty, where I would've liked to decorate some parts of my level with background pieces, but looking at the official levels, pretty much none are used as background, forcing me to leave certain portions of the level undecorated.