custom levels for Lemmings 2 thread

[geoo]

Thanks for playing and commenting on the levels.

De-Tailed Design

I remember the key idea to this level, but not all the details. But I think the main idea was somehow hard to enforce, or maybe it was just the specific setup that was too complicated. I'll have to look at it again, but you're probably right in that it needs a major redesign in order to work. Not going to happen too soon unfortunately.

Friendly Fire

My memory is a bit fuzzy, but iirc I got this working very consistently by firing from a bit further back, and flinging them towards the outer exits? But lowering the middle exit sounds like a good idea.

Breeze into the Light

I didn't remember the solution offhand, but I looked it up and it turns out you're actually missing a crucial trick here. I just tried and the execution is pretty reliable and simple. I think you'll like it if you find it, too bad you got trapped in a somewhat promising looking (probable) dead-end.

[Dullstar]

Cascade II by Dullstar - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtnkEIn2mAM

Cascade II

Short and simple but slightly disappointed that it doesn't try to look more like the original level, but the big empty space at least means the most direct route of roping straight from the top of the steps does not work as nothing to attach to when you turn around.

I believe I made that level playing with the editor to see what it could do, which would explain some things...
...although I must say, I made that so long ago that I had legitimately forgotten it existed.

Now I'm going to have to go through some old posts and files to see what all I made messing around with that editor.

[kieranmillar]

More geoo levels!

Untitled (cave.dat) - https://youtu.be/pJ4z33PO76g
Compression Convergence - Another 2 video-er, initial solving attempts: https://youtu.be/pDoiNf-5naQ and after working out a solution off-screen, 10 minutes of trying and failing to get that solution to work again: https://youtu.be/3WNoESiVFAU
Decomposition - https://youtu.be/x-0bKfxe8RI

cave.dat

It looks like you're supposed to break the fall of the bottom crowd but this simple solution that is probably a backroute is much easier. This is what happens when you give stackers and all the ground isn't perfectly flat. For all I know this solution could actually be right.

Compression Convergence

This was a great level, hard but fun to work out and a really cool idea, but the solution is extremely finicky to pull off to get everyone compressed enough. A second kayak would really help here, I don't see it adding a backroute and it would be super useful to reduce the level of precision and timing needed. The first time I experienced the flinging plant was quite the hilarious shock, so much for thinking things were going to be easy! :p

Decomposition

Oh good grief the L2 assignment rage here is atrocious. The solution seems straight-forward but I'm not going to spend any more time trying to pull this nonsense off. Yuck!

[geoo]

Thanks for the videos and comments.

cave.dat

I think when I uploaded the folder back then I just scraped together everything I had. Turns out, this level actually has a couple of versions and even a proper name! You'll find it as Give and Take in the archive, hopefully with less backroutes?

Compression Convergence

I'm glad you enjoyed at least figuring the solution. I don't remember if I had a reliable setup for it, but I agree that it'd probably be better with two kayakers, as then there's a nice and reliable setup that's easy to spot once you've worked out the solution. (And regarding backroutes, the two groups initially coming down are too spread out to go through the plant with only one lemming being flung I hope?) I think you can consider this one solved.

Decomposition

Seems like this was the last level I released, and it didn't get any playtesting. I don't remember it too well,
but what you're doing looks very sensible. Somehow I thought there was some other twist to it though? Either way, I do remember it being execution heavy, and it doesn't seem to exciting in hindsight. Should be possible to design something much easier to pull of featuring the main idea.

I think overall my best levels are probably Recycling Plant (make sure both fling plants work; I think outdoorlev.dat is
a prototype of it you can skip), Breeze into the Light and (with somewhat trickier execution) Sands of Time.

[ccexplore]

Seeing the youtube video for "Compression" was a little surprising, since it's not geoo's usual style to require that kind of fiddly precision-y trial and error.  Then again, in his initial posting of the level, he did warn about execution difficulty (see sentence on "Outdoor level").  He also was worried about backroute-proneness, which might explain why he didn't set up the level more like your suggestion.

Looking at the solution I posted, it was apparently for an intermediate version that has extra terrain, which enabled a variant solution with same concept but naturally led to more optimal (though still by no means perfect) results.  The extra terrain was removed in the final version since it was originally for backroute prevention, and we ended up dealing with that differently.  geoo's follow-up comment to my solution post also made it clear though that he did solve it more like what you tried in your youtube video, which does look rather frustrating.  (I never bothered trying to re-solve the final version of the level, since I didn't know at the time doing it geoo's way would be so much more tedious than my way.)  Your suggested change would seem like a good thing to consider.

[ccexplore]

De-Tailed Design

I remember the key idea to this level, but not all the details. But I think the main idea was somehow hard to enforce, or maybe it was just the specific setup that was too complicated. I'll have to look at it again, but you're probably right in that it needs a major redesign in order to work. Not going to happen too soon unfortunately.

Based on the solution I posted which you accepted, it seems like maybe just tweaking the terrain to make it impossible to glue thinly where kieranmillar had poured so far in his backroutes, would be a good (enough) idea?  Maybe you kept that there as a red herring originally, but if that's the case, it seems like a pretty tricky red herring to prevent from becoming a backroute, as his backroutes have proven.  That feature was clearly not needed in my solution.

That said, kieranmillar's intuition is probably correct in that the level may just need some overall simplifications to be less backroute-prone.  But with no time for that, maybe start with what I suggested above and see how it goes.

[kieranmillar]

So I've decided that commentary-less videos of my first attempts are not all that interesting, however I've committed myself to at least recording the remainder of geoo's levels. There aren't that many left. After that I will only record one if someone explicitly wants me to. I figure nobody really wants to watch 25 minutes of useless floundering in silence. I'd do commentary but currently have no way of doing so.

Here's the next batch of levels:
The Diver Level - https://youtu.be/oz-sPwL72yo then eventually I looked up the intended solution to see if I was right, turns out I wasn't, anyway here's the intended solution: https://youtu.be/sqTN-j4HVew
Fierljeppen! - A nice straightforward one-screener, but I couldn't quite figure it out: https://youtu.be/AgpJt4ugyg0 In the end I looked up the solution, and wish I hadn't because it's cool and smart and I think eventually I'd have worked it out myself. https://youtu.be/Ortm9skh9Pg
Give-And-Take - Could not solve: https://youtu.be/7MLp2qfYoPI Eventually I looked up the solution but then couldn't actually pull it off, so no video for you.

The Diver Level

For a test level, I actually really like this one. At first I was going to suggest you should move the sphinx a bit closer so it's easier to attach to it if you blast a lemming into the middle area, but after seeing the intended solution, it would be better if you moved it further away so you can't, that might make it easier to work out. Or maybe, because it's just a glitch demonstration level, none of this matters really. Anyway cool glitches.

Fierljeppen!

Oh man, a great one-screener! Wish I hadn't peeked at the solution now, not too hard to figure out, I was just dumb. It's cool how every skill feels like it's obvious where everything has to go but the most obvious just isn't quite right.

Give-And-Take

Interesting that it uses so few skills, and after peeking at the solution that's pretty interesting and smart, but I feel like this level really needs some easier way to pull off the relevant parts, the level comes across as pretty finicky because everything you want to try feels like you're trying to find an exploit. I could not pull off the intended solution as one lemming always got ahead and splatted slightly too early, I just need time to place about 2 more bricks but I can't get there in time or stop the extra early lemming.

[ccexplore]

You're right that most people won't watch the entire video.  However, I think it'd be good to still see the video but trimmed down to just the final attempt, so that it's easier for someone to tell if you hit a backroute or not.  I think it'll usually be more informative for both you as well as for the level designer than trying to explain your solution/attempt solely in words or with pictures.  Hopefully the pain points about tedious or fiddly parts can usually be adequately described by words alone in your comments, rather than staring at or scrubbing through minutes of silent floundering.

For my levels I'd like to see a video of at least your final attempt (successful or otherwise, but especially if successful).

[ccexplore]

Give-and-Take

Apparently I only included a single screenshot in my posted solution, and it's been ages so I can only reconstruct the solution based on that (and certainly don't remember how easy or hard it is to execute).  Based on the screenshot, it looks like I probably have the first lemming from right entrance start stacking, and let only the second lemming from right entrance get past that stacker to go build.  (It's also possible maybe the first one builds and the second one stacks, which may require picking the precise right spot to start stacking so no one overtakes that stacker.)  Once the right-entrance crowd starts getting flinged to the exit platform, looks like I have one lemming start stacking to make the fall off the builder bridge non-fatal, and also quickly have another lemming club-bash to both get through the mushroom as well as make a gap at the bottom with the second stack.

It seems clearly important to get the stacker at the top to start stacking as far right as possible, to produce the largest amount of walking (as delay) for the left-entrance crowd, as well as the smallest amount of walking for the right crowd (so they can reach and start the other stacking as soon as possible).  The timing and positioning of the builder and second stacker seems basically fixed.  So actually I kind of feel like there shouldn't be that many things to try and fail on once you have the solution idea.  Maybe the placements required for the skills are a little too pixel-precise?  I can see that maybe having to line up the builder with the second stacker by eye is not ideal.

[edit: thinking on it more, maybe the extra early lemming you're having problems with is actually the first stacker?  If a separate lemming builds, I wonder if the first stacker may be proned to overtaking the builder once he finishes stacking, given that I think stacker finishes faster than builder?

If that's the problem, I think you need to ensure the first lemming from right entrance does the building.  Or maybe even that he both stacks and then builds.  Either way would require the stacker to pick the right starting location (assume there's one) so no one will overtake him.  I'll grant you that if this is necessary, it's a little inelegant.  Then again, given the minimum skillset, it should be a logical tweak to try for getting the solution to work.]

[kieranmillar]

It's time for the final set of geoo's levels! For future levels I may not record my early attempts, but I just noticed there are only 3 levels from Clam and I know people are interested in one of those so I may just record my first attempts at those too. Will see how it goes. If the videos are uninteresting I just won't upload them.

Recycling Plant - Unfortunately Youtube doesn't seem to want to process this video after multiple tries, so I'm afraid I have no video here, sorry! You didn't miss much.
Sands of Time - Unsolved: https://youtu.be/va9M-Rh3IpU
Ticking Bomb (part 1) - Hey look, I actually solved a geoo level in the first take! https://youtu.be/RpoWtjrNTIE
Ticking Bomb (part 2) - Initial attempts where I actually get quite close: https://youtu.be/SjeTHxTWC0w and about 10 minutes later, I finally figured it out: https://youtu.be/ULjgkltT-z4

Recycling Plant

Man there is so much for me to still try and unpack here. It seems I need to get the crowd onto the second plant to fling over to the exit, but before I can work out how that is supposed to work, I first need to get the two crowds to not overlap each other so that each lemming can fling on this plant. I have yet to figure out how to do that. I can easily use a spear to get the top crowd to walk along the top path, but the two crowds still merge. After that, I need to figure out how to stop the lemmings flinging into the water, trying to spear over it seems to do nothing and the lemmings land in the water anyway, and I also need to figure out if I want to throw rocks so they land on the plant facing the right way, or somehow get them over and drop onto it form the right-hand platform, but then they are facing away from the exit. So lots to figure out here and little progress was made in the first 20 minutes.

Sands of Time

Another small level with few skills where nothing works. The fact that a group of lemmings start at the top implies to me that I need to sand pour from the top and split the sand across more than one place. Most apparent solution feels like using a bit of sand at the top to raise the height for the platformer to get to the exit, then using a rope to run the sand down to the left to get people out at the bottom, using the flame thrower to join the crowds at the bottom. But this needs something to attach the rope too, which implies building the platform and somehow pouring the sand through it and the same time. I don't get it. Very tough level.

Ticking Bomb (part 1)

So I figured out the main idea straight away. A good use of crawling, well done I should have gotten the exact sequence of events right a lot sooner than I did. This is a pretty creative level, very unique, I like it! I can't help but feel there is something a bit off about the auto-filler and when it pours, I swear there's some inconsistency in when the crowd gets freed.

Ticking Bomb (part 2)

If I'd have kept recording a little bit longer this could have all been in one video, but oh well. Again, with having to get the crowd to go up and with the skills available I was immediately drawn to mining through the big block, just getting the specifics to pull it off ended up being the issue. But again it's something I really should have figured out a lot sooner, it was keeping the miner going and jumping to cancel after creating a wall that got me stumped for a while here. Another great level. I like that the tree just so happens to work out as a one-way obstacle for the rock climber, that's pretty cute. The auto-filler feels unnecessary here, but you get bonus points for having two levels with identical landscape so it doesn't matter.

[kieranmillar]

Zooming through Clam's 3 levels in a Flash, each solved on the initial video, although the execution-heavy "What a Twist!" lost one lemming right at the end and I wasn't going to spend more time trying to fix that.

Wall Crawler - https://youtu.be/mxWu5yeNg_E
Throw the Switch - https://youtu.be/HffeykQ1ATw
What a Twist! - https://youtu.be/VZltpaLENqY

Wall Crawler

It looks like crawling is not intended but forget it, I'm going to do it anyway. There's a much less roper-intensive route by climbing up one of the pillars at the start using a bunch of Bombers but so many ropers are given that it wasn't needed. Going through the ground using bombers near the exit seems like it is intended but it's so easy to trigger a crawl when you have so many ropers, and the name seems to imply using crawling tircks so I don't know if crawling is intended here or not. I think this is a bit tedious and would be better if it was a bit more refined and was roper-only, as making the complex web of ropes near the start like I did in my solution was pretty cool.

Throw the Switch

Seems large and imposing at first but in reality is pretty simple, and a lot of fun too! A great level! I noticed the blue hook decorations signified where the rock throwers needed to go, not necessary but a nice touch. I think this level is well designed.

What a Twist!

Wow, very creative level It's not every day you see something so complex arise from only having a single skill to use! The problem with the exit getting filled was a nice spanner in the works too. The execution is a bit of a pain but it's the Twister so of course it's a pain. There could be some tweaks to make the execution easier, mostly the steel under the trapdoor could be thinner to give more room for the twister as it has to cross that area multiple times. Very smart, and the only good use of the twister ever.

[geoo]

Thanks for playing more of my levels.

Comments in spoiler tags again.

btw, tell me if and to what extent you'd like to get hints when you're stuck. I'll try not to give anything away unless requested.

The Diver Level

Yeah, probably sensible to move the sphinx away a bit. Basically I wanted to show off the different kind of things you can do with the diver. It's a glitch level, but given that I guess it does what it was intended to do. Glad you kinda like it

Fierljeppen!

I think this was one of my first levels. It's really just one main idea, but I guess it's not obvious at first. Btw,
you can make execution more reliable by bombing the last one walking into the cluster right before it ends up in the cluster. That way you're sure no-one else is in the same spot as the bomber.

Give-And-Take

I just tried it an execution seems needlessly tight. Basically, if the lemmings land on the second-highest brick of the stack that's already sufficient, and then with good placement of the first stacker things barely work out. Not sure if it's for backroute prevention, but I feel like it could easily be made a little easier to execute.

For Recycling Plant, as discussed in IRC, I suggest using V3. I can't guarantee that V3B and Vf work. Either way, the main idea you're in the process of working out applies to all versions.

Recycling Plant

There are no glitches or anything involved here. You sort of have the right idea what to do at the start, but not quite yet. I'm not quite sure what you're trying to do to activate the second plant, when I designed the level I thought it was obvious what's intended here, but apparently not quite. I hope you'll give it a few more tries working out the tricks. In the end there are quite a few assignments, but none of them are super precise, so once you got the placements down execution should be fine within a few tries.

Sands of Time

Again, you got some main ideas right here and some bits missing. I think the solution is very cool but at the same time a royal pain to execute. The level is small and everything happens fast, but there are still a lot of precise moves, unfortunately.

Ticking Bomb (part 1 & 2)

Actually, the design is a tiny bit different in the position of the auto-filler. True that for the second level idea it's not strictly needed, but that one spawned off the first one, and the auto-filler makes the premise of the ticking bomb by releasing the crowd. I also remember the autofiller being somewhat inconsistent, sometimes having short breaks, maybe somehow related to memory usage...
I didn't remember these two levels as particularly good, but looking at them again they are actually quite decent. I'm glad you liked them. And yes, it was a little painful seeing you struggle so long in part 2 not seeing how to prevent the crowd from going into the water.

Oh and I hope you're not going to skip over ccexplore's levels. Given, they are really hard for most part, but there are quite a few masterpieces among them. I just replayed Not A Lot to Go On (LEVEL110(2)) which iirc was one of the first levels, and the solution is as amazing as I remember it and execution is actually quite friendly.

[ccexplore]

Oh and I hope you're not going to skip over ccexplore's levels. Given, they are really hard for most part

Ha yeah, I think the poor guy could use a break after getting through all your levels one after another, before attempting mine.   Actually IIRC I think there's maybe just one or two more other level authors left anyway besides me.  Weirdybeardy is one and his levels are a lot more "accessible to the masses" (but still usually interesting and fun) and should be a great set to go through as a break from harder levels.

If I had to estimate a rough order of difficulty for my levels, I think it'd be something like below, feel free to use that as a guide on what order you might want to try them if you decide to try.

- Towards a Common Goal
- Can't Fit Thru!
- Pour Me Another (v4) [hard to judge difficulty as I'm not even sure I remember what I intended. I do remember it got to a point where I gave up on backroute fixing]
- Remote Control (Part 2) [Part 1 had some of geoo's other solutions kept in; you're welcome to try either or both versions as you see fit, but Part 2 is definitely closer to what I was going for]
- Not a Lot to Go on ("level110.dat" version with a backroute removed)  [This is the level geoo really likes.]
- Say Hi to Nessie
- Back Before Long (v4)
- Mission: Impossible (v2) [it was supposed to be slight more execution-friendlier than v1 and v3, but you're welcome to try the other versions as well; the solution geoo reported for v1 had like IIRC 95% of all the things I was going for and is accepted for all intents and purposes.]

Towards a Common Goal is the easy "take a break" level and obviously not particularly thoughtful, but hopefully the chosen skillset is still relatively constrained enough that the level is not completely trivial and still fun to solve.  I'd actually love to hear about any alternate skillsets that could be given to this level that may make things more interesting.

"Say Hi..." and "Back Before..."'s intended solutions may be a bit technical.  "Back..." also had some unfortunate aspects near the end that unavoidably forces a reliance on "luck" that even the frame-stepping technique can't help with.  "Mission..."'s complex solution concept sounds good on paper, but naturally introduces some execution difficulties that seem impossible to ease up on.

I think "Can't Fit...", "Remote Control..." and "Not a Lot..." may be my best 3 levels.  Actually "Mission..." would also be on my list but might just be too hard.

[mobius]

I've been watching some of kieran's videos and must say; some really cool and impressive designs here!   [Albeit with some precision heavy and tedious designs too ]

[kieranmillar]

Thnks for the info on your levels ccexplore. I might try wierdybeardy's first if they are easier. I did take a quick look at  Back Before Long as it was first in the zip file but I don't know if it's worth uploading as it was just a quick look and I got nowhere.