custom levels for Lemmings 2 thread

[ccexplore]

I see.  You needn't have actually explained what you intended with the trampoline, since AFAIK your changes in ATS5 does eliminate at least the specific workaround I used in ATS4.  Anyhow, I'll try again and see what I come up with this time around. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/devil.gif" alt=":evil:" title="Evil" class="smiley" /> http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" class="smiley" /> http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/undecided.gif" alt=":-\" title="Undecided" class="smiley" />

[ccexplore]

Sorry, the Highland Curse continues even with ATS5.  Although your changes do eliminate my workaround in ATS4, it didn't do much to actually eliminate the two backroutes in question ("ATS2_backroute3" and the more recent one that I mistakenly thought was intended), though I guess you can say it has make things more interesting for them.  See attached and spoilers:

The "glue-pour before basher breaks through" backroute ("backroute1"):  instead of having the last lemming out stack to get up, have the 3rd-to-last lemming out stack midway between the two platforms above, as in screenshot A.  This will also turn around last lemming out.  Have stacker hop onto the right once he gets high enough (screenshot B).  Later, have the last lemming out (the one that was turned around by the stack) hop onto the left platform; he'll continue hopping onto the stack and onto the right platform (screenshot C).  The rest plays out just as before, with the exception of dealing with the trampoline in the manner you described.  Oh, and the stomper stops stomping by assigning him thrower.

The "hop to the Pi, pour glue, stack and turn around" backroute ("backroute2"):  8th and 9th lemmings out will hop onto the platform above, around the same time 2nd lemming out will throw the spear while standing between platforms (screenshot A).  Don't assign the stomper until he has just turned around facing right (screenshot B).  Have the stomper keep stomping until just before it would be impossible to bash all the way to the right, then assign him basher (screenshot D).  As you can see with screenshot E, in the race against time between the basher and the hero lemmings, the hero lemmings readily win. [edit2: in fact, the heroes still win even if I started bashing sooner.  I added 2 screenshots ("ats5_backroute2b_1" and "..._2") illustrating this.]
[edit3: now I manage to use one less skill for this solution, taking advantage of the fact that if the lemming is assigned thrower while still standing on the sloped part of the red triangle of the "Pi", the stone will simply stick to the slope and will therefore turn around the lemming.  See added screenshots ("ats5_backroute2c_X") in the zip file]

[edit: and it turns out "ats2_backroute1" can still be adapted to ATS5, due to another change from ATS3 you haven't incorporated back to ATS5.  See attached "ats5_backroute3".]

[edit2: added screenshots for a minor variation for "ats5_backroute2", see spoilers for details]

[edit3: now I manage to use one less skill for "ats5_backroute2", see spoilers for details]

[geoo]

Ok, I noticed some substantial flaws, and here's another version, slightly different, but still featuring all the main tricks. As the previous one with a version number divisible by 3, this one has a different name again. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />

Thanks for still not getting tired of this level http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" class="smiley" />; I'm gradually doing so...

[ccexplore]

Thanks for still not getting tired of this level http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" class="smiley" />; I'm gradually doing so...

Ha, I was afraid that you did get tired and has given up on it.  But to put a positive spin on things, we can at least say that despite your fears, so far (I haven't downloaded ATS6 yet) your intended solution is anything but obvious from the look of the level, even when I have actually tried to find something different.

[ccexplore]

ATS6 continues to have me come up with backroutes while really making me scratch my head over the intended solution (so, bad and good I guess).  On the other hand, the backroutes have gotten yet tougher to execute, now requiring some pixel-precision here and there (see spoilers).  In fact, technically I've confirmed neither backroutes because there's "luck" at the end of both in assigning a right-facing lemming in the crowd the fencer, and I've been unlucky so far.

Even if you choose not to eliminate them, I'll definitely continue to try to work out what you intended solution is, given how long it has eluded me so far.  For once, the silence on this thread will be coming from my end, as I puzzle myself over your level. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/thumbsup.gif" alt=":thumbsup:" title="Thumbs Up" class="smiley" />

[edit: added some additional stuff on "backroute2" that you might want to watch out for, see spoilers]

backroute1:  your terrain changes almost eliminated this "backroute which wouldn't die": the solution where a spear is thrown for later glue-pouring, and you start pouring glue while the basher/fencer is almost but not completely broken through to burn off some glue-pixels.  Nevertheless, I still found a position for the stacker that works for ATS6, but now some moves need to be done at pixel-precise locations.  See screenshots B and C in "ATS6_backroute1.zip".  I wasn't able to fully confirmed this solution because of the luck required in selecting a right-facing lemming for the fencing, so I'm not 100% sure whether the glue burn-off still works out correctly now that the basher is replaced with the upward-sloping fencer.

backroute2:  new backroute not possible in previous versions of level.  Yet probably not hard to eliminate?  It's very similar to backroute1, except the stacker starts further to the right and serves to trap everyone (screenshots A).  For glue-pouring on the spear, we now use the last hopper to send one more lemming up to the top, and have him pour glue at the precise position shown in screenshot D.  This will burn off just enough glue pixels so that the remaining glue that falls down onto the spear and extends off of it will just barely fall short of reaching the green triangle (screenshot F).  As seen in screenshot E, the glue-pouring lemming will then stomp down so he can fall safely onto the spear (as well as removing the wall blocking the crowd from reaching the spear).  Free the crowd by fencing through the stack.

[edit: additional variations on backroute2 you may want to look out for.  I haven't even tried any of them yet but they look plausible enough that you might want to take them into account when doing backroute elimination.  (So bad news, maybe not that easy to eliminate after all...)

a) by starting to pour a little earlier, you can burn off even more glue, but the glue will block the lemming and make him turn left.  He will then walk up to the dog (I think) and fall off of its nose.  Looking at it in the editor, I think the fall is not fatal.  If the stack started a little bit further to the left, he can then turn around at the stack, head right, and stomp away the wall without starting all the way from the top of the glue.

b) even if it's not possible to move the stack further left (so that when the lemming falls off the dog's nose, he merges with the crowd), an alternative is to have the last lemming out start fencing at the bottom of the valley left of and closest to the crowd's pit.  My hope is that the fencing can continue until it breaks through both the left wall of the pit as well as the stack.  That way, the crowd will head left initially (I guess depending on how the fencer breaks through), isolating the fencer to do the stomping-away of the wall.

[geoo]

Ok, without much ado (I'm too tired to write much right now), here comes version 7.

I'm glad you're not withholding the intended solution just to tease me http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />, but are determined to actually find it. You're not that far away, actually.

[ccexplore]

Ok, let's see if I finally have it this time.  This is rather close to one of the "ATS6_backroute2" variations, but since you did say I'm not that far off, maybe this is it after all?  The spoiler has additional explanations.

This is basically the variation where a lemming pour from all the way up top, turn around to the dog, and falls off its nose landing on the stack that is trapping the other lemmings.  The stack is then stomped away, and as soon as one lemming gets as close as possible to the thin bit of wall blocking a direct fall onto the spears, stomp (screenshot F).  A few lemmings may turn around, but the entire column will have been completely stomped away just in time for those lemmings (screenshot G).

I expected the stomper of the stack to go all the way to the bottom, where you'd use the kayaker to get him to the other exit.  But as it turned out, because of the particular positioning of the stack on the slope and where I started stomping the stack, there's a natural 1-pixel gap between the bottom of the stack and the slope, which naturally stops the stomping at the right moment.

Whether this is the intended solution or not, let me note that I don't feel entirely through investigating backroutes yet, particularly any new ones that may have been made possible by your recent changes.  But I must rest now. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" class="smiley" />

[geoo]

Yep, that's the intended solution; you also got the purpose of the kayaker right in your notes. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/thumbsup.gif" alt=":thumbsup:" title="Thumbs Up" class="smiley" />

If you still intend to go on backroute hunt, I think I'll only fix more backroutes if I see an easy way to do so, lest I open up new one. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" class="smiley" />

[ccexplore]

Actually, before I hunt for backroutes, I'm going to first revisit the old versions to get a sense of how the solution would be adapted to them. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/huh.gif" alt="???" title="Huh?" class="smiley" /> The current solution seems to depend on some changes you only introduced starting at ATS6 I think.  I know previous versions have extra skills and such, but I'm not sure off top of my head that it would quite compensate.

At least now that we've gone through all this to enforce the intended solution, it does make for a very nice level with many potential routes to consider, but (hopefully) only one working route that has some non-obvious skill usages. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/thumbsup.gif" alt=":thumbsup:" title="Thumbs Up" class="smiley" />  And hey, we finally manage to make a level in Highland tribe that looks and plays decent! http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />

[geoo]

Yeah, from 5 to 6 I changed the solution to some extend, because I didn't want to keep my initial flawed solution just for the sake of keeping it.

I used the stomper's tunnel for the entire crowd, however wanted to force that they'll enter it mid-way after walking towards the right and back.

I'm glad you like the solution in the end, so it was perhaps worth the effort of changing it over and over again. The Highland terrain is pretty difficult to work with, unless you want to restrain yourself to only using the blocks (in which case you could simply use Sports or Egyptian tribe instead http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />).

I already got a new one which might be somewhat tricky. I went the easy road and chose Egyptian this time, which also has a clean record when it comes to backroutes, so that might be a good omen. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" /> One note: despite the roper, you're not supposed to apply crawling http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/angry.gif" alt=">" title="Angry" class="smiley" />; I hope the secondary platforms under the entrance and exit prevent that.

[ccexplore]

I already got a new one which might be somewhat tricky.

Wow, you will be so embarassed by this backroute. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" /> http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/XD.gif" alt=":XD:" title="XD" class="smiley" />

Nice title though tying in with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_of_Persia:_The_Sands_of_Time_(film)" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">recent movies.  (Disclaimer: I have not seen the movie myself, and I am generally highly suspicious of movies based off of video games anyhow.)

[geoo]

Ok yes, that is such an embarassing backroute...at some point I thought I had taken platforming there into account, but somehow I neglegted it again....  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/XD.gif" alt=":XD:" title="XD" class="smiley" />

Just as precaution, I'll provide two new versions at once: SOT2 is a slightly modified version in the hope to fix the backroute, but possibly still prone to some of the kind. SOT2_2 should be a fool-proof version of it, just visually less appealing, as I removed the pyramids there. You can ignore SOT2 if you want, it'd just be a nicer version to have visually.

[ccexplore]

Ah, much better.  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/cool.gif" alt="8)" title="Cool" class="smiley" /> Is this it?  (See attached.)

Very nice minimalistic level that looks impossible at first glance, and requires some thinking and experimenting (including precise, clever use of skills) to work out the solution. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/thumbsup.gif" alt=":thumbsup:" title="Thumbs Up" class="smiley" />

I've actually only looked at version 2_2, but I think it might actually be better in some ways, that the pyramids are removed.  It gives a more dramatic, striking impression of "impossible at first glance" look to the level, at only the slight expense of giving less possibilities for the player to try.

[geoo]

Ah nice! http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" /> Not quite what I intended, but not that far off either.

Yeah, perhaps the version with the removed pyramids isn't that bad, "impossible at first glance" is actually a trait I like about levels.

[ccexplore]

This must be it then.  Nice! http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/thumbsup.gif" alt=":thumbsup:" title="Thumbs Up" class="smiley" /> And I just noticed now the additional meaning in the title... ;-)