custom levels for Lemmings 2 thread

[geoo]

Ok yeah, I found a solution to part 2 as well. I'm not sure whether the spearer is necessary, but I didn't get the standard setup working (like in my solution to part 1) likely due to a start position offset.
Overall it was nicer to execute that the solution for part 1.
Sending via PM again.

After reading the first line of your trampoline hint, I had another try at an idea I discarded earlier, I had just massively overcomplicated things previously. Subsequently got the setup working, and reading the rest of the hint I guess it matches what you have intended. In hindsight it's far from an obscure setup, perhaps I just put it aside too early. It's good to know that I won't have to try all kinds of stuff with the trampolines now.
I got a lose 2 solution now, which fails due to the timing not working out.
Got to look whether I can find something else still. The note at least doesn't seem to match (and the only thing I can currently think of matching it is a rock climber stuck in a wall x_x).

[geoo]

Ok, I found a solution to BBL v4 now. There's one skill left over, however my solution complies with your note. The behaviour used is a bit obscure, but at least I was familiar with it. Tricky one.

I use an archer to have one lemming stand still while sand is being poured over him. He has to be assigned climber beforehand to get stuck in the sand hill, as otherwise he'd just crawl out. Having him stomp is then where ccexplore's note applies to. The rest is evident from the screenshots.

[ccexplore]

@geoo: Ding-ding-ding-ding-ding!!!!  Yep, you finally got it, good job! http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/thumbsup.gif" alt=":thumbsup:" title="Thumbs Up" class="smiley" /> http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/cool.gif" alt="8)" title="Cool" class="smiley" />  I was beginning to wonder if I was going to have to wait until after my travels to hear back from you. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/winktounge.gif" alt=";P" title="Wink-Tongue" class="smiley" />

Since you asked about the original version with its weird floating exit, I've attached here a screenshot of it.  Other people can feel free to look at it since I don't think it's so different that it'd give much away in terms of hints.  I'll PM you with some additional stuff (including the thing about the leftover skill).

[geoo]

There's indeed not a lot been going on during your absence.
I conceptualized a level though which I finally got around to implement. I fear the terrain might give away a lot of the solution, but we'll see.

[ccexplore]

If my attached solution is your intended solution (all skills used and elegant solution, so that's a good sign?), then I suppose yes, one could say the terrain probably does give away various parts of the solution here and there, but really, that tends to be the case anyway for the typical uses of some of the given skills.

Still, while only a "medium-difficulty" level (as opposed to something like "breeze into the light" or "not a lot to go on"), it's a nice, fun puzzle nonetheless http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/thumbsup.gif" alt=":thumbsup:" title="Thumbs Up" class="smiley" />; there were still a thing or two I tried before settling onto the attached solution.  I can see this level as something that would be a natural fit for an official L2 level.

[geoo]

Actually, your solution is a backroute, but a nice one. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" /> (Both in itself and in that I think it should be easy to fix. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />)
I didn't take this pourer behaviour into account, so I lowered (what was I thinking http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/XD.gif" alt=":XD:" title="XD" class="smiley" />. As no-one downloaded it yet, I just replaced it) heightened the Pi a bit now.

I'm glad you enjoyed it up to now, hope it'll stay like this with the next version. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" class="smiley" />

[ccexplore]

Well, bad news for you, here are 3 more backroutes so far (all of which works in ATS v1 by the way).  Actually "backroute2" does use all skills, so I'm only guessing that it's still a backroute.

[ccexplore]

Wow, I guess the bad news was worse than I expected.  Had I totally killed your level concept?!? http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/shocked.gif" alt=":o" title="Shocked" class="smiley" /> http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/undecided.gif" alt=":-\" title="Undecided" class="smiley" />

In the meanwhile, here's an implementation of a level concept I had while I was away in May.  Good news and bad news:

good news:  finally, a ccexplore level not using the Sports tribe!
bad news:  ...it uses the Egyptian tribe http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />

Though in my defense, after the level was created in Egyptian, I did take a brief look at a few other tribes to get a feel for how they'd look, and I still think the level would look best in Egyptian.

Gold is saving all lemmings.  Per Egyptian convention, the blue cane/"walking stick" thingie on the upper right is background, while everything else that doesn't animate are terrain.

Some of you may be nervous about the ballooner skill in this level, in terms of execution.  While the balloon manipulation will likely be somewhat harder than in a typical official L2 level, it's not meant to be challenge-hard:

- you don't need crazy mad skillz with balloon-steering like in my min-skill solution to Space 5 or Sports 7.  There's a reason that the terrain has been set up to make the balloon not fit through the places you'd probably want it to.  Try being more gentle with the fan if you're constantly blowing your ballooner into a side wall by accident.

- you don't have to hold the ballooner at a fixed position for an extended period of time with the fan, while doing other stuff.  I mean, I guess you could execute it that way too in my intended solution, but there's a smarter way.

Anyway, good luck!

[geoo]

Wow, I guess the bad news was worse than I expected.  Had I totally killed your level concept?!? http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/shocked.gif" alt=":o" title="Shocked" class="smiley" /> http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/undecided.gif" alt=":-\" title="Undecided" class="smiley" />

Well, pretty much. At some point I even contemplated redesigning it in the sports tribe.  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/XD.gif" alt=":XD:" title="XD" class="smiley" /> One of your backroutes also made me realize how overly complicated my intended solution is. When I had thought I had eliminated that nasty backroute, there was still some tricky way to pull it off, not possible to eliminate by a mere terrain change. So the new version comes without the thrower, and with a new name. It's got also a bit more difficult to execute now, but I'm glad it's working at least now. And if the terrain didn't show off the solution too clearly in the previous versions, now it most definately does (I guess).

Had a short glance at your new level, but no results yet.

[ccexplore]

Truly sorry to report this so soon after you released ATS v3, but your latest version fail to eliminate my "backroute3".  See attached screenshots and spoiler:

Instead of pouring the glue after the bashing breaks through, start pouring glue with someone from the crowd closely behind the basher, just a little before the basher breaks through.  This will "burn off" a number of glue pixels, namely the ones that solidified because they've hit the end of basher's tunnel before the basher broke through.  This shortens the glue platform so that it doesn't overreach and miss the exit.  See screenshots.

On the plus side, I haven't found your intended solution yet.  Granted, I haven't spent much time with the level yet, but at least this means your changes did not make your intended solution jump out at me at first glance, as you may have feared.  That said, I guess sooner or later, I'm bound to pick up a clue based on clearly seeing what you've changed and haven't changed.

[ccexplore]

Ok, some good news for you at last:  I think I've finally found your intended solution for ATS!  See attached.

I've cross-checked with v2 and v1 and can see how to adapt (see spoiler) the solution concept on those versions, which boosts my confidence that this is what you intended.

The idea is to start the stacker at a location of a given ceiling height that will naturally stop the stacker such that he ends up facing right.  In v3 this is done by taking advantage of the terrain change, whereas in v1 and v2 you'd throw a stone onto the ceiling, lowering the height at the spot it sticks to.

[edit: actually, now that I think of it, in v1/v2 I could simply make the stacker throw the ball to stop stacking, once he has stacked high enough and is facing right.  Huh.  Did you overlook this?]

It turns out to be a complete accident/coincidence that it took this long for me find the solution:

Early on when I tried using a hopper to get to the top of the "Pi", I just missed it.  I guess apparently I didn't start hopping from the very tip of the green triangle.  But because I missed the Pi with the hopper, I thought it wasn't supposed to be reachable that way, so naturally I quickly ended up looking for other solutions instead, resulting in the various backroutes I've reported.

[geoo]

And I had hoped I had eliminated the backroute by removing the thrower...only thought of stopping the glue pourer by having him hit his head at the stone, but not by removing the glue with the basher.

I was pretty much out of ideas how to cope with it, but I went back to version 2 and I thought up something new now. Hope the laser blaster doesn't open up another can of worms.
I'm somewhat more confident again now. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" />

What you thought to be the intended solution is...well, another backroute. But I think by the one change to eliminate that other backroute, I got this one as well.

[geoo]

Found most likely the intended solution to "Can't fit thru!" now. Nicely conceiled in an elegant and minimalistic level.

After unsucessfully messing for a while, I actually solved this level using an analytical branch-and-bound approach:

After having deduced that I'd have to use the filler to free the crowd and that it can be done once the route is completely set up, as well as using the jumper to get the hero out of the pit (as the ballooner is merely as powerful as the jumper in that situation), I went on trying to eliminate the possibility of using two heroes, when I noticed I had already found the solution on this branch.

[ccexplore]

Yes, you got it.  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/cool.gif" alt="8)" title="Cool" class="smiley" /> Glad you enjoy the level.  Being conceived during my vacation, it was definitely meant to be a comparatively less complex (but still nontrivial) solution and less saddled with red herrings, which has the nice side benefit of allowing me more time to focus on visuals during implementation.

=================

Now, back to your level.  Clearly the Highland tribe is a cursed tribe (damn Scots! http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/laugh.gif" alt=":D" title="Laugh" class="smiley" /> Just kidding), since the last time I was so plagued with backroutes with one of my levels, it was the "Pour me another!" level I did back around I.S.'s birthday, and lo and behold that was a Highland level also. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" class="smiley" />

Anyway, your latest level fails to eliminate neither "backroute3" nor the new solution that turned out to be a backroute, thanks in part to the increase in the skillset, though you may be surprised to learn that I don't need the laser blaster for either one.  The spoiler provides additional explanation:

I was a bit surprised at the addition you made at the upper-right part of the level, but for better or worse, it didn't take too long for me to find a way out of that.  Making use of the arguable glitch that a hopper can hop through a trampoline without triggering it (as long as it's still in the "hopping" stance and hasn't transitioned into the "falling on my ass" stance once it falls too far down), the screenshots show how I use the re-introduced thrower to allow the hopper to eventually hop through the trampoline.

I also used another hopper to stop the stomper (whereas before it stops naturally by hitting steel).  While the resulting timing is slightly different (probably because I assigned basher to the hopper instead of someone in the crowd), the "pour glue before basher breaks through" trick still manages to work out.  And actually, the laser blaster also provides an alternate way to deal with the glue platform going "too far", details left as an exercise to you.

As for the more recent solution where I hop onto the "Pi", pour glue and stack, the extra skills you've given me now allows me to simply stop the stacker with a hopper (you can also use the laser blaster for that I guess).

If I have to guess, perhaps you didn't go far enough with your latest changes?  Or is it somehow intended that I could get around your latest changes this way?

[edit: ATS4 also allows the "ATS2_backroute1" backroute to work without any modification, but that's probably because you forgot to put back in some of the changes you made in ATS3 that killed that backroute]

[geoo]

Ok then, here's what version 4 was supposed to be. Yeah, Highland is cursed, and difficult to work with (especially the bumpy pieces) to boot. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/undecided.gif" alt=":-\" title="Undecided" class="smiley" /> I should take the easy road and just design in Sports and Egyptian. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />

"fails to eliminate neither" sounded good at first read http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" /> ...the trampoline construction was obviously not supposed to be worked around like that. You're supposed to send two lems there so that one can fall through and free the other one with the laser blaster. And I think under that premise none of the backroutes should work. (Apart from, of course, backroute1, which I was 100% sure to have eliminated by moving the steel down, which I yet didn't do apparently. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/scared.gif" alt=":scared:" title="Scared" class="smiley" /> Oh well...)