Level Review Topic

[mobius]

just so you know; I didn't really test this level on a Genesis emulator. I said that only because:
There was a video I wanted to show you that demonstrates that there definitely is a difference in steel mechanics. Now I can't find it. But in the video the player is able to bash through steel by simply doing some weird combination of building/bashing. No blockers or trigger areas were used as far as I can tell. If anything however, it indicates the steel is possibly even more glitchy. In any case, it doesn't matter; as you said it's clearly possible even with the steel glitches just a little harder.

moving right along...

Genesis, Sunsoft level 28: The gate trap Lemmings

http://www.neolemmix.com/levelimg/extra/0328.png" alt="" class="bbc_img" />

Lemmings: 100
100% to be saved
Time: 5 minutes
Release rate: 70

Skills: 1 floater, 1 bombers, 1 blockers, 6 builders, 5 bashers, 2 diggers

Good: I like the design a lot. As usual the decoration is really nice/well thought up putting blocks together to make them look bigger.
The solution(s) are neat, and effective use of one-way-walls.

Bad: There are too many solutions making it too easy for its position in the game. Though the arrows say 'only on terrain' in Lemmix for some reason in Lemini they don't display right. They remain on screen when you bash through the terrain.

only 2 levels remain! (and I wooped both of them already  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" />)

[Proxima]

There was a video I wanted to show you that demonstrates that there definitely is a difference in steel mechanics. Now I can't find it. But in the video the player is able to bash through steel by simply doing some weird combination of building/bashing.

Which level? In DOS Lemmings / Lemmix you can often bash through the top of steel without blocker-cancelling (e.g. Taxing 6 100%). But that's not relevant to Present 16, which has no bashers http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/winktounge.gif" alt=";P" title="Wink-Tongue" class="smiley" />

Your previous review says "Genesis/SNES Sunsoft 28", which is incorrect. The SNES version has a much shorter Sunsoft set, containing just five of the unique Genesis levels (Two heads are better, I am A.T., Private room available, Final impediment, Lemmings' Ark).

Genesis - Sunsoft 29 / SNES - Sunsoft 2 - I am A.T.
http://www.neolemmix.com/levelimg/extra/0329.png" alt="" class="bbc_img" />

100 lemmings
To save 80% (80)
Release rate 1
2 minutes

1 bomber, 1 builder, 40 diggers

Good: The archetypal digger-staircase level, containing no extra complications (other than the red herring of the bomber, in fact useless). A striking and memorable solution that, inevitably, has led nearly all of us to have a go at building on it at some time or other. Yet that's not to say the level is simple once you've grasped the concept; you still need to fine-tune the details, such as finding the correct release rate, avoiding a splat, and letting the first 20 or so lemmings walk to the exit before beginning the work. In short, an excellent introduction to some advanced lemming-control concepts that are unused in the normal solutions to the vast majority of the original levels. And the 100% solution is pure poetry.

Bad: This level can be really annoying as you have to keep going without missing a digger. It's pretty much "We all fall down" except the first digger (thankfully only the first) is pixel-precise.

[mobius]

it's mayhem 18, two different worlds. They bash through the steel straight on to the exit, it's not near the top of the level.

[Proxima]

Here's the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iipvDLK0pOU" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iipvDLK0pOU

This is a combination of two different glitches -- firstly, once the game has decided that the basher or miner stroke can start (because the lemming is standing on normal terrain), it will take out all terrain in its mask, including steel. (This is why he builds before the second basher.) Secondly, once you get halfway into steel, you can bash the rest of the way through. I can't replicate this in Lemmix because steel detection is a little more robust, and the game won't allow the first basher even to be assigned -- but for a spectacular example of the exact same glitches in action in the DOS version, look at Wild 11, where you can mine and bash through the large triangle towards the end, and so avoid the floating and building necessary in the conventional solution.

[ccexplore]

Interesting, so it looks like the basher in Genesis probably takes the same behavior as miner assignment in DOS Lemmings/Lemmix, where the steel check during skill assignment is probably done based on whether the lemming is standing on steel, rather than whether there's steel up ahead.  In contrast as Proxima pointed out, DOS Lemmings/Lemmix does the "metal ahead" check during skill assignment for basher (but not miner), so the move seen in Genesis Mayhem 18 won't work in DOS Lemmings/Lemmix, but the Wild 11 example Proxima pointed out of course does.

Of course, it doesn't really put much weigh at all into mobius' argument about the Present 16 nuking solution--the Genesis Mayhem 18 example rather suggests you are just as likely, if not more likely, to blow away any steel near the exit, and not less likely as one would want for the nuking solution.

[Crane]

Great review of "I am A.T." - definitely one of my favourite levels of all time... plus I have a soft spot for the "Little Town of Bethlehem" music... is this only the third time it's used in the entire game, after Fun 17 and Tricky 18?

By the way, the Bomber is useful as a recovery tool if you dig slightly too far forward (hence leaving a thin wall), as well as stopping the digger to prevent lemmings from splatting.

----

Genesis/Mega Drive - SUNSOFT 30 - Fall and no life (Part Two)

http://www.neolemmix.com/levelimg/extra/0330.png" alt="" class="bbc_img" />

Lemmings: 50
Target: 100% (50)
Release Rate: 50
Time Limit: 3 minutes

Tools: -- 01 -- -- 05 05 02 --


Good: Nice reintroduction of a memorable Taxing level, but with a couple of extra surprises around the second narrow pit.  Level has a bit of a "how on Earth do I get through this?" feel to it.  Intended solution is nerve-wracking and down-to-the-wire in regards to time.

Bad: Doesn't really feel epic enough as a final level, although that isn't helped by the presence of a few too many backroutes, some more cunning than others.  The fact you can't do the one-way wall mine trick on top of the cliff can feel a bit cheap.  The "Lemmings 3" music is starting to feel a bit overused... mind you, what tune would be good for the final level? (Might have chosen "Lemmings 1" personally, same as the original "Fall and no life" and "Lemmings' Ark")


Hope that's fair - anyone want to add to that?

[Proxima]

The "Lemmings 3" music is starting to feel a bit overused

Wow. I never noticed this before, but the music on the Genesis version is very strange! Every other version I've played cycles through all 17 tunes so they each come up the same number of times (or nearly -- the special levels interfere with this). On the Genesis, the music seems to be assigned almost at random! There's even an instance of two consecutive levels with the same music ("Ten Green Bottles" on Taxing 10 and 11). I've written down which levels have which music up to the end of Taxing -- I'll do the rest tomorrow -- and so far you're definitely right, "Lemming 3" is just a little overused, occurring 11 times in 87 non-special levels.

I would have suggested "Rondo alla Turca" for the final level, because it's awesome, and it's not used nearly enough on the Genesis version, occurring only twice so far.

Fall and no life (Part Two) is one of my favourites, but I found the epic main solution first and discovered the backroutes later.

[mobius]

So you're saying you tested this on a Genesis emulator and the music selects at random? Strange.

What was your solution?

mine was:
almost same as part 1 except let two lemmings go on beyond the first crevice. One mines to turn around then mines into the longer crevice and bashes to free the others before falling.
This is one of the backroutes I'm guessing. I didn't even get to look into the left part of the level and see what else was going on. On youtube somebody has what he claims are the two main solutions that are probably intended. His name is LemminsMaster

I was frankly a little disappointed. I have to sort of agree with Insane Steve I think it was, who said he thought part 1 was harder. If only because part 2 is so similar and now I've already learned the tricks involved so it's not a big deal.

and also, probably been discussed before but what's with the title? Clam's Fall and DIE! sounds a lot better.
More Japanese/translation issues or just culture differences?

---
After playing the Genesis levels I have to give a big hand of applause to the creators of this version. Very well done despite numerous sad backroutes. Some of the decoration is ingenuous and required a lot of work. Also great job in using the underused graphic styles. Except one minor complaint: the third 'slicer' trap of the Crystal set was never used was it?
All in all it greatly expanded on the original game.

Some of the choices made however are just plain strange. Like some of the titles. and the music.
Some of the levels are really out of place in the difficulty ratings. Some seem just pointless. There are a few that look sort of interesting but have such simple solutions you have to wonder if it's really a backroute or just some kind of weird level idea gone wrong or something  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/huh.gif" alt="???" title="Huh?" class="smiley" />

And why remake some of the ONML levels when they were making their own? Why not remake all of ONML? Since they made so many originals why not makes two separate games or another game? They must've bet on seeing how the game would do and apparently it didn't do well enough to make more sequels etc..  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/sad.gif" alt=":(" title="Sad" class="smiley" /> Of course Sega is known for doing things that don't make any sense at all so...
I know "Sega" didn't create this game but Sega is ultimately in charge of saying "make another lemmings game" or not.

[ccexplore]

I know "Sega" didn't create this game but Sega is ultimately in charge of saying "make another lemmings game" or not.

Hmm, I'll profess ignorance at how the game publishing business works on the consoles, but really?  It's not just a matter of the game publisher who decided to hire people to make and market the game?  This is not Sonic we're talking about after all, I rather wonder how much involvement Sega would have on Genesis Lemmings.

About the Genesis having so many unique levels, I'm guessing it must be something that was established in early planning.  It is clear that there is a technical limitation with the maximum size of the level area on the Genesis version.  This probably led to early realization that many of the PC levels just can't be made to work without major re-design, at which point you might as well create new ones specifically for the Genesis, which is of course exactly what they did.  The PC ONML levels won't help much in that regard as many of them would probably have the same issue of level size (well to be fair, I haven't really do an actual survey of them to say for sure).  I'm also guessing that technical limitations would make it problematic to include all the new graphics sets from ONML so they just stuck with the original 5 graphics sets, even when remaking a few selected ONML levels.

It is a fair point though that there are some Genesis unique levels in the post-Mayhem ratings, that seem like would be better off replaced by a remake of an ONML level instead.  But considering what they came up with amongst the unique levels, I think they just really got drawn into new level creation and probably found remaking ONML levels not fun enough by comparison.  (And probably easier to sell to management the value of having more new unique levels.)

The "random" music order is something I never noticed since I didn't play many of the levels on the Genesis emulator.  An interesting question would be whether the music ordering is at least "normal" for the levels that are direct ports of the original PC/Amiga levels?  I can easily see the music ordering becoming scrambled amongst the replacement and new levels.

[Proxima]

So you're saying you tested this on a Genesis emulator and the music selects at random?

No -- it's like the other versions in that each level consistently has the same music -- but instead of cycling through the 17 pieces in an absolutely regular pattern, it's all over the place. (That said, now that I have the full list, there's much more pattern than you'd expect from a purely random matching. Taxing 21-30, Mayhem 11-20 and Present 1-11 have identical sequences, except that Present 10 throws an extra "Cancan" into the mix. Mayhem 1-10 and Sunsoft 1-10 have the same sequence (in which "Lemming3" occurs twice!) Equal-numbered Taxing and Sunsoft levels have the same music for 21 out of a possible 28, the exceptions having seemingly no pattern. Five out of six Level 16s have "London Bridge".)

Crane is sadly correct that "O Little Town" occurs only thrice. "Lemming3" is, as we suspected, the most common, occurring 21 times; the runners-up are Tim2 (17), Doggie and Mountain (16). The oddities in the sequence seem to have nothing to do with whether the levels are original Amiga ones or new ones; for instance, the first repeated music is Cancan (Fun 1 and 12), before the first new level appears.

[exit]

I feel like bumping this topic because the forums haven't been getting lots of activity recently(with today as an exclusion), and starting a new level review would bring a lot of activity. Of course, we don't have to do a level review if we don't want to.

If we do decide to do one, I suggest Holiday Lemmings 1994(in order).

[Akseli]

There's a topic for Holiday Lemmings already: http://www.lemmingsforums.com/index.php?topic=209.0

I think the two 4-level Xmas Lemmings games haven't been reviewed yet there.

By the way, in my opinion the activity on our forums has been unordinarily high during the last months. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" />

[namida]

There's always fanpacks, too. I don't think any of the Lemmings Plus series have had review topics done; and I can definitely say for sure the cLemmings packs and GeoffLems haven't.

[exit]

I was not aware of that.
If we want to review a custom level set, we could do it on the custom level set review topic.

[Wafflem]

I was thinking we could create separate official fangame review topics like with DoveLems; this is so people will have a variety of fangames to review in, and this may also help boost forum activity. For series of fangames (e.g. Lemmings Plus, cLemmings), the games can be reviewed separately instead of doing it in the order they are (e.g. two separate topics for LPDOS and LPII instead of one topic called "Lemmings Plus Series Level Review Game")

If possible, there should be a separate forum section for all level review games. There should be two sub-sections: one for official games, and one for fangames.

Also, now that namida has released the Lemmix players for COVOX, Prima and the Extra player, we should start reviewing levels from those, too. Should we start with COVOX?