Oh No! More Challenges!

[ccexplore]

Good job! http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/thumbsup.gif" alt=":thumbsup:" title="Thumbs Up" class="smiley" />  I'm actually kinda glad I don't have to spend too much further time on working out a 100% solution, although I might still try to finish what I was working on and see how my solution work out (as well as making it possible to compare with your solution).

I decided to go through with my ideas anyway, and my Tricky 28 solution ends up saving 100% using 10 builders and 2 climbers.  I've uploaded the Lemmix replay http://camanis.net/lemmings/lemmingswelt/index.php?cmd=get&file=challenge_replays/Tricky28_10Builders2Climbers.zip" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">here.  (A floater was used in the replay only so I can more easily keep track of which climber is the one I want to turn into a builder; it is obviously optional.)

My major "mistake" in doing this challenge is that my mindset was too focused on create a small holding area to compress the lemmings, when instead one could achieve the same thing starting with a much larger holding area, like ClamSpammer's solution.  ClamSpammer's solution give much more flexability in controlling the spacing between lemmings (through RR changes), making a 1-climber solution much more likely (and probably less difficult to work out) with his way.

[EricLang]

I think it would be a good idea (when Lemmix Custom is finished) to add a "challenge" sections (the number of sections can be 99) to new or existing levelpacks.

[Clam]

I decided to go through with my ideas anyway, and my Tricky 28 solution ends up saving 100% using 10 builders and 2 climbers.

Very nice  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/thumbsup.gif" alt=":thumbsup:" title="Thumbs Up" class="smiley" />


So they don't get lost at the bottom of the last page, I'll post my new challenges again. I might also put my recent challenges into a single post at the start of the thread like I did before.

Tricky 27: 100% with 2 builders.
Wild 10: No diggers.

I wonder if a 1-builder solution to Tricky 27 might be possible with a bit of steel digging - not with 100%, obviously, because of the general lack of skills.

EDIT: 77/80 is definitely possible with 1 builder, it may be possible to improve this to 78.

EDIT 2: 78 is almost certainly possible, but I'll have to go back to the start to fix my replay http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/sad.gif" alt=":(" title="Sad" class="smiley" />

[Clam]

I've just found another very powerful use for the "blocker cancelling steel" glitch. This means the 78/80 solution turns out to be much easier than expected, and won't require me to go back to the start. However, to go for 79/80 (which I'm now convinced is possible), it looks like I will have to start over and find a way to save a digger. My current solution is quite poor in this regard, so it shouldn't be difficult.

100% with only 1 builder seems to be out of reach, since the restrictive skillset means at least one bomber will be needed to get up to the exit.


EDIT: I struck a few complications with the skill limits, but now 79/80 is confirmed as well. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" />

[LemSteven]

I've got one here that is loosely based on the "1 of each skill" thread, but modifies it slightly to fit the skills in the actual game:

Havoc 4:  Save 100% using 2 builders, 2 bashers, and a digger.

[Clam]

Interesting. This seems to be slightly more problematic than the "one of each" challenge. In the end, it amounts to much the same thing though (as one would expect).


I just remembered something - in the previous thread, I posted my Xmas Lemmings records, and said some of them were "challenge-worthy". I didn't mention which ones, so I will do so now:

Flurry 16 - 49/50 (98%)
Blitz 13 - 70/70 (100%)
Frost 14 - 44/50 (88%)
Hail 5 - 80/80 (100%)

These may be the last straight max % challenges you'll see for the original levels, so have fun http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" class="smiley" />

[Clam]

I've found another tough challenge based on the steel-cancelling glitch.

Mayhem 18 - 8 builders. The level requires 72/80 to pass, though it's definitely possible to save one more than that.

You may recall that this level was the subject of one of my earlier "builders only" challenges http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />

[ccexplore]

Hail 6 - lose 40 (PLEASE do not try to improve on this unless you can set up some sort of computer simulation. It's pointless.)

Turns out it's not pointless, and you don't need computer simulation to make an improvement on this.

I've now achieved losing only 34 (so 46 saved = 57%).  Moreover, it's provably the maximum solution possible for this level.

Attached is the replay for my solution (Hail6_save46.zip), as well as a replay that helps illustrate why lose 34 is the best you can do (Hail6_UBound.zip).  Hail6_save46.zip also includes a text file explaining the overall strategy behind my solution, to show that you don't need any computer simulations to arrive at it (as long as you know the relation between RR and spacing).  Hail6_UBound.zip contains level file Hail6_UBound.lvl, a modified version of the level to help show why lose 34 is almost certainly the optimum.

The proof that lose 34 is the best you can do is to slightly modify the level so that you have more time and lower minimum RR, which makes it possible to set up the lemmings so that when the first explosion occurs, everyone is compressed to a single location directly above the exit, so all the lemmings have to do is just fall directly to the exit.  In this clearly optimal setup, you still lose 34, and the reason is clearly because those lemmings all exploded before they could finish the fall to the exit.

[Clam]

O_o


You, sir, are a genius. Never again will I view a theoretically possible lemmings challenge as pointless. And thank you for ignoring my warnings and diving into this.

The proof that this is the maximum possible is obvious. The only reason I didn't try it is that, as I said in the previous thread, I thought it was pointless.


You know what this means? We can now work out the total number of lemmings lost over all the original DOS games http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/laugh.gif" alt=":D" title="Laugh" class="smiley" />

The total number lost over the Xmas levels is 56 - two of those are in an ONML preview level (Crazy 14), so really it's only 54. Now, if anyone remembers (or can be bothered to find on the old forums) the numbers for Original and ONML, we can put them together to arrive at the grand total. This really is a momentous occasion - but a sad one as well...

Will we ever rescue another lemming? http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/shocked.gif" alt=":o" title="Shocked" class="smiley" />

[Fleech]

I've (rather sadly) got a spreadsheet with all that sort of information in. Assuming no typos and that none of the records have improved since I last regularly visited the forums:

Lemmings: lose 55
(Oh No!): lose 82
Xmas: lose 54

TOTAL: lose 191 (out of 17189 - using DOS version with 80 lem limit)


Aside from that, I had a go at those Xmas challenges. I'd already done Blizzard 13 but I'm one lem away with all the others and struggling. Any chance of some replays at some point? http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" class="smiley" />

EDIT: I've just watched ccexplore's replay. Brilliant!

EDIT: Updated the totals. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" />

[LemSteven]

Lemmings: lose 60

I'm pretty sure that number is a bit too high.  Here is the breakdown:

Fun 3:  Lose 3
Fun 6:  Lose 2
Fun 18:  Lose 5
Tricky 15:  Lose 3
Tricky 16:  Lose 4
Tricky 17:  Lose 2
Tricky 18:  Lose 1
Tricky 23:  Lose 1
Taxing 7:  Lose 1
Taxing 19:  Lose 5
Taxing 27:  Lose 3
Taxing 28:  Lose 10
Mayhem 5:  Lose 4
Mayhem 10:  Lose 2
Mayhem 19:  Lose 3
Mayhem 26:  Lose 4
Mayhem 29:  Lose 2

Total:  Lose 55

The only scores I have not accomplished myself are Mayhem 2 (100%) and Mayhem 10.  So my best personal score is Lose 57.

Anyway, this would bring the total figure down to 193.

[Fleech]

Ah right thanks. I had Taxing 28 down as lose 15 in my sheet instead of lose 10.

[Clam]

Aside from that, I had a go at those Xmas challenges. I'd already done Blizzard 13 but I'm one lem away with all the others and struggling. Any chance of some replays at some point? http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" class="smiley" />

I have the replays, but firstly I'll give a few pointers as to how the solutions came about:

Frost 14 requires some very counterintuitive timing - the best solution doesn't come from trying to get over the gaps as quickly as possible. My solution here actually ended up with a lemming stuck in the bottom part of the second "9", so I can't say for sure that this is the maximum possible percentage for the level.

Flurry 16 has some tricky timing as well, which takes some experimentation to work out. More important here though is placement. It pays to know exactly how far a lemming can fall without splatting.

Hail 5 uses a clever trick. My solution comes from building from the top of the spike, but looking at it again, it does seem to be possible by building up from the ground as well. Again, it pays to know the safe-fall distance.
EDIT: It definitely is possible to do this by building up from the ground. Which, come to think of it, makes this solution quite easy.

[LemSteven]

This isn't exactly a new challenge, but I've found an easier way to execute 100% on Wicked 6 (PoP TiL YoU DrOp!) than what ccexplore described back on the Lemmingswelt forums.  Let me explain by first describing what ccexplore did:

Back on the old Lemmingswelt forums, ccexplore (then known as "Guest") posted a challenge to save 98% on Wicked 6 in ONML without using any bombers.  The thing that kept this solution from getting 100% was the fact that the who clears the path to the exit falls too far, while the walkers are saved. 

Later, ccexplore successfully improved the challenge to 100% by brilliantly making the miner block just before he falls.  Assuming the miner started in the right place, the blocker would be standing on nothing (due to a now well-known miner glitch) and would simply fall.  This allowed the lemming to be saved just like the other walkers.  Unfortunately, in order to get the trick to work right, the miner needs to start in an exact position, and several builders are needed to reach this position and to keep the miner going all the way to the exit.

What I did was I went back to the old no-bomber 98% solution, but tweaked it in the end to save the miner.  Just as the miner was about to fall (which would result in his death), I made him build.  He laid down three bricks before hitting his head and turning around.  I then had the very next walker build from the edge of the last brick.  This placed the edge of the bridge directly over the exit, so the lemmings could all drop down and exit using the direct drop trick.

I found this solution much easier to execute than ccexplore's method.  Plus, it uses just five builders on the right side, which leaves seven builders for the left side.  Although ccexplore has shown that the left side can be done with as few as three builders, the extra ones make the execution easier and even leaves some room for error (i.e. wasting a builder won't ruin the attempt).

I suppose the only bad thing about this new method is the reliance on the direct drop trick.

[ccexplore]

I've found an easier way to execute 100% on Wicked 6 (PoP TiL YoU DrOp!) than what ccexplore described back on the Lemmingswelt forums.

Good job! http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/thumbsup.gif" alt=":thumbsup:" title="Thumbs Up" class="smiley" />

But I'm a little surprised that it only takes 5 builders on the right side.  (That said, I haven't looked at that level in ages, so maybe it's obvious when you get down to sketching out all the possible miner routes.)  Does that include the two builders you need at the end to deal with the miner?  Did you use more than one miner on the right side?  I think seeing a replay of your solution might be interesting.

I guess one concern with your solution is how easy or difficult it is to make sure no lemmings overtake the miner while it's building.  Although with all those spare builders available maybe it's not a problem at all.

I suppose the only bad thing about this new method is the reliance on the direct drop trick.

Other than that not working on some versions (eg. Amiga), the direct drop trick is at least less strange than the miner glitch.  Hardly a "bad thing" in my book.