Oh No! More Challenges!

[Simon]

Pondering about Fun 15 (Don't let your eyes deceive you) without scrolling away from the initially visible start area... Does the challenge allow the Dragonslover assignment bug? I.e. hover over hero, hold right mouse button, let hero walk out of screen, hover over blocker, assign skill to remote hero by clicking on the blocker?

And if so, does the stricter fomulation "assign in initially visible area" include Dragonslover assignments via blockers inside the area to workers outside of it?

-- Simon

[finlay]

I really can't think of a way to do it; whether you go by the ceiling route or floor route you're either going to have to build over the pit, or dig down over the exit, and both ways involve a skill assignment off the first screen. (utilising bugs is unfair http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/sad.gif" alt=":(" title="Sad" class="smiley" />)

[ccexplore]

I have a very quick look just now and I believe you don't need to cheat with DragonLover's bug:

It's a little tight, but I think nuking will work w/o killing too many.  You can lose up to 40.  The fall takes I think 19 frames (so 19 died from exploding before finishing the fall) and there's 16 frames of "oh-no" before the explosion happens and on top of that, you lose no more than I think 16 or 17 due to the fact that fallers explode immediately on countdown 0 (thus 16-17 frame sooner than the early ones who gets to do "oh no"), so altogether it should be about 35-36 lost.

[edit1: actually, maybe that doesn't work as well as I initially hope, since falling lemmings explode sooner.  I still say it's a cheat to use DragonLover's bug, although I guess if you go with minimac's formulation it's technical not a cheat.]

[edit2: I did a more empirical test with modified version of another level (not hard to guess which one, I suspect that one inspired minimac's challenge for Fun 15), and looks like it does work out--the minimum loss is 36.]

Indeed, I have to argue DragonLover's bug is not permissible under Clam's formulation of the conditions, since the lemming receiving the skill assignment is well outside the initial screen boundaries, even though your mouse cursor happens to be inside and hovering over some other lemming.  It is a bit contrived to say that you are assigning the skill to the lemming under the mouse cursor when some other lemming receives the skill.

[edit3: figured out the error in my initial spoiler that confused my reasonings.  Fixed the spoiler with the correct reasonings.]
[edit4: reworded spoiler to make reasonings clearer, I failed to explain everything.]

[Clam]

Oh yeah, I completely forgot about the right-click bug. I'd say it is legitimate to use this, since you can do it without scrolling the screen. In fact, this glitch is almost tailor-made for this type of challenge http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/shocked.gif" alt=":o" title="Shocked" class="smiley" />.

I strongly disagree with the 'using bugs is unfair' argument. While there are a lot of challenges that don't require glitches, there's a limit as to how far you can go without them. Abusing glitches is great fun (to me at least), and leads to better scores. I appreciate the 'pureness' (or whatever you want to call it) of glitch-free solutions, and this is recognised by the 'glitch' tags in many of the challenge topics. (By the way, you're more than welcome to start 'glitch-free' versions for those that don't, eg. least skills.) But abusing unintended game mechanics opens up so many more options; it adds another dimension to the game. If you don't like glitches, then don't use them, but to me they give the game more flavour, and - crucially - more longevity.

As for Fun 15, I did it by the method explained in ccexplore's spoiler. Here's a replay.

[ccexplore]

Oh yeah, I completely forgot about the right-click bug. I'd say it is legitimate to use this, since you can do it without scrolling the screen. In fact, this glitch is almost tailor-made for this type of challenge http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/shocked.gif" alt=":o" title="Shocked" class="smiley" />.

Ok, but I worry it might make this type of challenge a little too easy.  Also it is only logically consistent under minimac's original formulation of screen scrolling, and is probably against the spirit of what minimac originally envision the challenge to be like.

Nevertheless, if you manage a use for it more interesting than getting a fully remote-controlled hero lemming, I'm happy to look the other way. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" class="smiley" />

[edit: for more info on DragonLover's right-click bug (unfortunately it isn't on the glitch topic it seems): http://www.lemmingsforums.com/index.php?topic=252.msg7709#msg7709" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">http://www.lemmingsforums.com/index.php?topic=252.msg7709#msg7709]

[Clam]

Nevertheless, if you manage a use for it more interesting than getting a fully remote-controlled hero lemming, I'm happy to look the other way. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" class="smiley" />

Remote-control lemmings aren't interesting enough for you? http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/undecided.gif" alt=":-\" title="Undecided" class="smiley" /> Seems pretty neat to me http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/laugh.gif" alt=":D" title="Laugh" class="smiley" />

The only things that stop this being a viable challenge thread (IMHO) are:
1: You'd have to use the same setup every time (set a blocker, send one remote-control lemming ahead, glitch-assign skill, rinse and repeat if necessary), which would get boring,
2: The glitch doesn't work in Lemmix, so you have to use DOSBox http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/sad.gif" alt=":(" title="Sad" class="smiley" />
3: Without the glitch, most levels are either trivial, or clearly impossible. Fun 15 is a rare, though nice, exception.

Also, it is mentioned in the glitch thread (under 'other'), though I should add a link to that topic. (edit: done)

[ccexplore]

3: Without the glitch, most levels are either trivial, or clearly impossible.
1: You'd have to use the same setup every time (set a blocker, send one remote-control lemming ahead, glitch-assign skill, rinse and repeat if necessary), which would get boring

Couldn't have said it better: even with the glitch, seems like it'll mostly be setup #1, which is boring and also intellectually not particularly satisfying (it's practically just a remote-control version of a standard hero lemming solution with the standard blocker crowd control).  I guess things might be more interesting when there are no blockers, which also happens to be the case for a lot of the later, harder levels.  But then you'll likely need a lot of spare skills to keep going a lemming that is always doing something (so you can use it in place of the blocker for doing remote-assign), and not a lot of later harder levels have those in abundant supply.

So, not sure if the glitch really does much towards #3.

As for #2, I had been working on LemmixPlayer a while ago, fixing various Lemmix emulation bugs and also improving the replay support, it probably wouldn't be too hard to get it to support DragonLover's bug as well.

[mobius]

here's a challenge based on a youtube video done on the Super Nintendo from 2008 (but me and Clam checked it's possible on DOS/Lemmix) if you know it don't spoil it for someone who doesn't!


Solve Mayhem: Pea Soup without building over the soup.

(there's more than one way)

[Minim]

Interesting idea for a challenge, but this one has been solved already. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" /> There's a link around about http://www.lemmingsforums.com/index.php?topic=170.msg6933#msg6933" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">here that has one solution coinciding with the "fewest builders" solution to Pea Soup as far as I know.

[mobius]

Lemmings Revolution; "Take her up to warp speed captain"

Solve the level so that every lemming saved enters the balloon upside down.

(since this worked out so well, I'm gonna try this for others as well)

[Minim]

Quite an unusual challenge but I've solved it, sparing I think 2 builders.

Let the second lemming block the others while the first lemming mines through the first obstacle. Build before he hits the second anti-gravity pad. Mine through the next obstacle and build a zig-zag staircase right-to-left until he reaches the steel ledge. Turn him into a climber facing left and build towards the balloon. Release the others by letting someone mine under the blocker. Build one last staircase but watch out for the shredder.

Here's another LR challenge. Solve 10.5 (Scale that wall) in under 2 minutes.

[mobius]

oh cool. Another person who plays LR.  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" />

I found a different way but your way is better.

my way:
-Let 4 lemmings go then block. Mine/dig/bash through first platform.
-last one builds over the second gravity pad.
-the first lem shuts the first vertical door, the second shuts the second horizontal door and the third mines a hole in the platform on the left in between doors for the others to go "up" through. -The last lemming builds up to that hole then build right to the balloon.
The shredder is all the way over on the other side of the level and shouldn't be a problem. I avoided that area of the level completely. I think that's where you went. (which sounds easier now that I think about it)

-I just tried and succeeded going your way (no need to flip any switches and go around the level) http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" />- it definitely saves more lemmings. I'm not sure if the shredder would've gotten in my way or not. My lemmings by-passed it when it was position away from them, luckily.

then I'll have a look at your challenge

[mobius]

here's a challenge alternate version of Patience.

EDIT: I forgot to attach the level  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/XD.gif" alt=":XD:" title="XD" class="smiley" />

--
I haven't solved the above challenge yet.  [Solve 10.5 (Scale that wall) in under 2 minutes.] but I think I have a way it might be done;

block the lemmings on the door above the balloon. Have two or three go left and blow a hole in the floor and have one bash under the tall door then all the way left. Then build to the wall on the left, climb and build over to the switch. build to turn him around then he flips the switch.

Like I said idk if this works or not.

[Minim]

Interesting, I never thought of heading left to hit the high switch. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" /> Another backroute to what is supposed to be a challenging level. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/angry.gif" alt=">" title="Angry" class="smiley" />

I have tried your method and have just managed to execute it with only one second to spare. There is a guaranteed quicker way to get to the switch so that it is possible in about 1:30 (and that you can save more lemmings too).

As for your paitence challenge, http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" /> it wasn't as hard as I thought it was going to be, but at least you removed those bashers which could've made it much easier. I saved a few skills on that challenge.

[Proxima]

Here's your Patience challenge done with 100%.

If we're posting modified levels here, I'll attach Mayhem 29 from the TMChallenge set. Most of the set aren't too tough, but this one is worthy of note as an individual challenge.