Timing: Reasonable Obstacle?

[GuyPerfect]

I was playing through all the Lemmings Revolution levels and eventually quit playing. A month later, I went back to the game completely wondering why I stopped playing and remembered. The later levels require you to time your solutions in such a way that the Lemmings can pass a certain spot at a certain time, but all the while it needs to be done within the level's time limit.

An example is the very very last level, appropriately titled "It's Going to Take Time." In this level, at the very end, is a rotating log with spikes on it that moves ever-so-slowly and only cycles twice throughout the levels' time limit. For half of its cycle, it's down by the ground where the Lemmings walk, and the other half of the cycle it's up in the air so the Lemmings can walk under it. The rest of the level is a multi-layered puzzle filled with one-way walls, switch-driven platforms and even a bit of backtracking. I liked the level in and of itself, though upon reaching the end I found that my first solution was timed incorrectly and all the Lemmings got cut up by the spinning spike-log.

There are lots of levels later in the game that require proper timing like this. At least one level has some boxed-in weasels with switches that, as they walk left and right, enable and disable platforms. This requires the player to get the timing right in order for a Lemming to pass the platform without falling to its death, eventually to do away with the pesky weasel.

I've always considered Lemmings something that you could theoretically plan out from start to finish just by pausing the game at the beginning, but when things change depending on what time it is, it, for me, just throws in an element of irritation that I don't care for. So my question to you guys: is the idea of "proper timing" a reasonable consideration in the creation of Lemmings levels?

[Dullstar]

Congratulations!  This is also important to remove in L2 (giving >= 2 orders in .01 seconds, anyone?).

[Clam]

That would be frustrating indeed. This is a puzzle game we're talking about here, not a platformer. I don't have first-hand experience of this but I can't see any upside to including it in the game. You can create a puzzle with complex timing using terrain and skills alone - switches and the like are a lazy way to force it. Moving enemies (weasels, potato monsters, etc.) are similar in a way, but in some cases can be destroyed, so they're less of a problem. Still not ideal though.

I just watched a video of this level on Youtube. That was unbelievably boring . That brings up another point - levels that are needlessly long, just for the sake of it. (And another thing - dumb completion screens and crappy endings. Here is the video if you want to see for yourself.)

I agree with your point of planning a solution from the start. That's half the fun of playing a level - plan it, then try to pull it off

Simultaneous orders are another problem entirely. That doesn't necessarily mean you can't plan from the start, but nonetheless should definitely be avoided.

[Dullstar]

There was a level I made for the fangame project (Epic Lemmings Fangame thread) that I didn't keep just because, well, it was pretty much impossible if you didn't know how to switch between skills with the keyboard.

[LemSteven]

Back on the subject of Lemmings Revolution, I haven't had much trouble with "It's Going to Take Time" once I figured out how to do it the first time.  The only thing the rotating log really does to me is it forces me to solve the level in about 8-9 minutes instead of using the full 10.  I don't think I've ever solved it too quickly, and if I were to do so, I would be be able to stall by delaying the final step until the path was clear.

The one that drives me nuts from a timing point of view is "Turn on! Tune in! Switch on!"  The solution is brilliant, but the need to time the hitting of the switches perfectly in the end drives me crazy.

[The Doctor]

I don't find that timing is necessarily a bad thing for a game. The talk about "Oh, well I'm so used to playing it one way and so being forced to think outside the box is bad" is really quite irritating. Get over yourselves, your way to play isn't the only way. That's why there's more than one Lemmings game, and each varies in approach.

I never plan out a level from the start, because it rarely turns out that it actually works that way. In Lemmings 2, this is especially true of levels with canons and swinging chains. And in All New World of Lemmings, you need to be assigning skills to Lemmings to compensate for dissolving platforms, enemies, the spinning mole, and such forth.

As for giving 2 orders in 0.1 seconds, that's what the P key on your keyboard is for (or F11, for the original and Oh No!)

[Dullstar]

I don't find that timing is necessarily a bad thing for a game. The talk about "Oh, well I'm so used to playing it one way and so being forced to think outside the box is bad" is really quite irritating. Get over yourselves, your way to play isn't the only way. That's why there's more than one Lemmings game, and each varies in approach.

I never plan out a level from the start, because it rarely turns out that it actually works that way. In Lemmings 2, this is especially true of levels with canons and swinging chains. And in All New World of Lemmings, you need to be assigning skills to Lemmings to compensate for dissolving platforms, enemies, the spinning mole, and such forth.

As for giving 2 orders in 0.1 seconds, that's what the P key on your keyboard is for (or F11, for the original and Oh No!)

It's still annoying!

[Clam]

I never plan out a level from the start, because it rarely turns out that it actually works that way. In Lemmings 2, this is especially true of levels with canons and swinging chains. And in All New World of Lemmings, you need to be assigning skills to Lemmings to compensate for dissolving platforms, enemies, the spinning mole, and such forth.

I disagree. That may be the case when you first start playing, but before long you figure it out (or, at least, you should), and from then on you can deal with such things. Without some sort of plan, you're not likely to get far on a difficult level. And planning from the start doesn't necessarily mean you can't change plans...

[The Doctor]

Then tell me how I beat Lemmings 2 in two weeks, and ANWoL in 2 and a half. =]

[Clam]

Through a tedious process of trial and error, of course . Fortunately for you, a lot of the levels let you get away with this.

[The Doctor]

I wouldn't say tedious. I did each level wrong once, and then went ahead and beat it the second time.

EXCEPT

The levels which use the swinging chain in Lemmings 2. Hated that thing. I'd jump on it, and the Lemming would freakin' miss.

AND

The levels in ANWoL which require the use of the mole, because I'd always build the wrong way.

By the way, every time I played the Beach levels, I'd think of your avatar's eyes. O_O. lol. Then I'd see the actual clam, and then crack up.

[Clam]

Yeah, the chain pretty much sucked. Though we've already agreed that the fan was a nice touch, but something we'd rather not see again. As for the mole, I'd say you should be able to figure out what it does and then know how to use it, but the thing only showed up in about 3 levels so you never really got a chance.

[Dullstar]

That seems so much like the female lemming.  If I recall correctly, Lemmings Encyclopedia says it's a trap, but, looking through the solutions, I only saw it three times in the whole All New World of Lemmings.

[The Doctor]

That Lemme Fatale was a little cow. Playing in Kids mode avoided her, but ... I found that was cheap.

[GuyPerfect]

Then tell me how I beat Lemmings 2 in two weeks, and ANWoL in 2 and a half. =]

Took me four nights of fascinated clicking. (-: