Epic Lemmings Game?

[Dullstar]

I'm thinking of making a large lemmings fangame (hey, this is where I've seen most fangame topics appear, correct me if it goes in the Level designing board).

Of course, I'll need help.  Requested positions:
Level designing: anyone can do this in any level editor, and submit them in the .lvl format
Lemmings with More Levels?:  It would be awesome if we could turn this into an ongoing project with more than 120 (or 100 if we use OhNo!) levels.  I know there's a similar thing called "Lemrmake" that makes it so you don't have to worry about those silly clone levels, but could something be done to add more levels?  If anyone can do this, I'd appreciate it!

NOTE:  If you make a really long post, and want to submit a level that isn't a post attachment, it would be easier if you made the download link a separate post, even if it does mean double posting.

[Tim]

When you talk about a fangame, do you mean a new format (with a game engine, graphics, menus etc) or a new level pack using the current original format with Lemmix?

I dont mean to point out the obvious here, but if the answer is for a new format, two ideas have been brought up (the Multiplayer Game Plan and the Perfect Blend), but of course this could totally be different to them and I just dont know it.

Otherwise if its to do with a new level pack on the current format, I see where you are going with that. I tried that out with one completed pack, but unfortunately it did not stick well because many people didnt like my excessive use of the builder in most levels (you may have seen it already anyway).

[Dullstar]

I basically want to make an expansion on the original lemmings with more levels.  I already found a way to enable OhNo! graphics.  I'd like to increase the number of levels, add the OhNo! songs (though not top priority), and ignore the OddTable (though there's already something to do this, so basically if someone can make it support more levels...)
However, as far as level development goes, just use whatever lemmings level editor you use (you know, Lemmix, Lemmedit, and, though I'm not 10% sure, Lemmini might be one), and submit them in .lvl format.  However, if someone could make a remake that uses the same file formats but has a new interface.

Passwords-  could we replace those with Save Files?
Cheats- I really think it would be great if we could have some cheat codes that weren't as much of a cheat as what is present in Lemmings and OhNo! More Lemmings, as their cheats made the game way too easy.

[Clam]

There's quite a lot you could do to improve the game without completely overhauling the system, now that I think about it. Things that wouldn't affect the technical aspect of gameplay at all (things like new skills are out unless we can get a good programmer on board, sadly). Cheats are a good idea, as long as they don't actually help you to pass the levels. Maybe we could have graphical cheats only, like "turn all exits into Macintosh hell exit". Save files are also a good idea of course - few games still use passwords these days.


Other things we could add might include:

- non-linear level unlocking (Revolution style)
- achievements (which could unlock cheats)
- scoring (see GuyPerfect's thread for my ideas on this)
- records
- challenges
- stats (one big screen where you can see everything about your progress in the game)
- improved level screen (so you can actually keep track of your goals during the level)

all of which could be done without fundamentally changing the game. That said, there are a couple of game-mechanical things (like steel glitches, and probably some of the other glitches as well) that really should be changed if possible.

The original is the best, as a wise Lemmings forumer once said, but it could be made much better with some simple improvements. We don't necessarily need flashy new graphics to make a new game. If you just want to build a new bunch of levels, that's OK, but I think we can do more to keep the game fresh.

[Dullstar]

Exactly, Clam Spammer, we need to design new levels, and fix a couple glitches.

- non-linear level unlocking (Revolution style)

I never thought of that, but that's a great idea.  I suppose as long as the .lvl stuff still works, or a new format comes out that fixes the steel glitch, we could probably do that too.

- achievements (which could unlock cheats)

I vote to do it closer to SPORE, except a little nicer.  Okay, cheating can disable achievements while you play, but there could be an achievement that lets you cheat and still earn achievements.  Also, as opposed to cheats being unlocked, how about the game just telling you how to activate them, or adding them to a "Cheat list" but should allow you to manually enter them if you already know what they are, but there could be "Extreme Cheats" that you can't use at all without certain achievements.

- scoring (see GuyPerfect's thread for my ideas on this)

...

- records

Personally, I think those could go nicely hand in hand.  Scoring could be done by adding a couple of bonuses, such as a time bonus for remaining time, skill bonus for unused skills, and lemmings saved bonus.  The game could keep records on these scores, plus an "Overall Greatest" score.

- challenges

I vote yes!

- stats (one big screen where you can see everything about your progress in the game)

That could be interesting, but starting to enter somewhat complicated territory here...

- improved level screen (so you can actually keep track of your goals during the level)

Not 100% sure what you mean, but I think there could be some things we could add.  How about a Lemming Death Toll and something that tells you how many lemmings you need to save with a number instead of a percentage?
We also need something that allows you to select a lemming heading in a given directions, and, if possible, a choice between DOS and Amiga versions of the music would be cool...

Now, we can either do a total overhaul of the original game, or we could start from scratch.  One things for sure, though, we'll need a volunteer with programming experience to do either one.  Personally, I think the best way to go would be a total overhaul of the Lemmix player's interface, and if we did that, it would be easier to get help.  I agree, though, we don't want to be too close to the original game, since, while it was good, to live up to their full potential, a complete fangame would be best done by majorly editing major parts of the game...

[Clam]

I vote to do it closer to SPORE, except a little nicer.  Okay, cheating can disable achievements while you play, but there could be an achievement that lets you cheat and still earn achievements.

I don't think we should go too far with cheats...

Personally, I think those could go nicely hand in hand.  Scoring could be done by adding a couple of bonuses, such as a time bonus for remaining time, skill bonus for unused skills, and lemmings saved bonus.  The game could keep records on these scores, plus an "Overall Greatest" score.

My idea for a scoring system is explained in some detail here. (I presume you've seen this already).

That could be interesting, but starting to enter somewhat complicated territory here...

I don't see why. The stats screen would basically be an accumulation of your records for each level, plus a few other things. This would help you keep track of your progress towards achievements.

Not 100% sure what you mean, but I think there could be some things we could add.  How about a Lemming Death Toll and something that tells you how many lemmings you need to save with a number instead of a percentage?
We also need something that allows you to select a lemming heading in a given directions, and, if possible, a choice between DOS and Amiga versions of the music would be cool...

with all of that. Also you could display your current records so you can see if you're on track to break them.

Now, we can either do a total overhaul of the original game, or we could start from scratch.

I'm really not sure which way to go here. *shrugs*

[The Doctor]

What do we mean by challenges? I find that interesting.

I'm thinking along the Super Smash Bros Brawl (and yes, I realise thousands of games beforehand use the following system, just trying to keep things mildly current) lines where various elements are changed.

I'm imagining it basically as similar to Lemmings 1's repeat levels. Like...

- Levels that once required blockers now lack that skill
- Do this level with fewer of each skill
- There is less time, or the clock ticks over faster
- Expanses that require building over are much wider
- The exit is in a different place
- There is more metal in stages
- Drops that Lemmings could previously survive are now fatal

... or something. Basically that old repeat levels scenario but not in the main section of gameplay. Am I on the right path, or meandering into a trap, here? :-)

[Clam]

By "challenges", I mean something like the ones in my challenge thread, but not quite as difficult. In most cases, that would mean restricting the available skills in some way, possibly combined with other restrictions like time and lemmings to be saved. Some of your ideas are intriguing, though I'm not sure about changing the terrain in a level.  I'd rather have a system where the level is the same every time you load it up, rather than choosing "normal" or "challenge" mode. When the level starts, you can see your records (if you've passed the level before), plus the challenge goal, and decide which one to go for. As for moving the exit, maybe you could add a second exit as the "challenge" exit, but then there could be a problem with dodging the "regular" exit. A similar idea that occured to me is a "checkpoint" that your lemmings have to pass through before they can exit, but that might be tricky to implement.


Anyway, in light of recent posts here (some of which were made by me ), I have decided to make...
a level.

As you will see, it's not a very difficult level - most likely Tricky rating. However, I think it could serve as an example of the sort of levels that we want to create, along the lines of Jason's recent post in the GuyPerfect thread. In addition, it demonstrates the potential of my proposed scoring system - playing separately for lemmings, skill economy, and time lead to very different solutions. Add to that a challenge (100% without builders) and you've got a versatile and replayable level. And there's no floating lava

Have a look and tell me what you think

[The Doctor]

I rather like that level in its own right. There's a variety of ways it can be solved. I basically categorise levels into 6 groups (my friend Adam will say I use 5 groups, but that's because I forgot one)

1. Building levels, where a builder or group of them make a huge ramp (A Ladder Would Be Handy Here)
2. Turn around levels, where a hero or group goes ahead of the pack, and then turns around and solves the level backwards (Mary Poppins' Land)
3. Hero levels, where one Lemming does the entire level forwards while the rest wait until it's safe (Don't Let Your Eyes Deceive You)
4. Pixel perfect levels, where you need to execute skills at JUST the precise moment (Walk the Web Rope)
5. Deep pit levels, where Lemmings need to somehow get out of a great big hole (Pillar of Hercules)
6. Extreme Hero levels, where other Lemmings have to wait behind but there are no blocker skills

And you know what? I think that level could satisfy each type with variations on skills

What you described as challenges seem similar to what I had in mind, variations on elements, except of course for the implementation of how each challenge can be completed.

The more I look at this thread, the more I read my little book and improve my programming skills. Ah, how easy it sounds to code, but I need to learn something like SDL or whatever people use these days, first.

[Dullstar]

DO I CARE WHAT PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE WE USE?  NO!
To tell you the truth, as long as it turns out in the end, I think we can think of multiple ways to get there.  By the way, I don't know much programming language, so I might just help with what I do know.
In the mean time, we can still work on submitting levels.
btw, I'd like to avoid Pixel Perfect Levels.

[Dullstar]

Test this level for me.  It's a level planned for use in this fangame.  Do you like it?

[Clam]

Many of the one-way arrows have no triggers so you can just bash through the crystal stuff to the exit. This can be fixed by placing objects more carefully though.

Also, I don't much like the tiny cracks in the terrain. There's a level in ONML ("LoTs moRe wHeRe TheY caMe fRom") that does something similar, and it's really annoying. It's easy to get your lemmings stuck in the terrain. Yes, you have plenty of builders to get them out, but giving massive amounts of skills would mess with the scoring system - 20 would be enough. The time limit is far too generous as well. This may sound like I'm trying to make it too hard, as I (and others) have done with Custlemm levels, but I don't think there's really any use for excessive amounts of skills and time, except maybe in Fun rating levels (which this map certainly isn't).

On the plus side, there's a few ways to go about finding a solution, which is nice. And you don't have to think too hard to find a way up. With a couple of minor changes this would make a decent medium to high difficulty level.

[Dullstar]

Yeah.  I discovered a backroute today.  2 climbers were intended, which was also the reason for the builders  .I'll check for errors in Lemmix...
We'll see about the first crack, since it's supposed to be there.  I'm going to run a check on skills to see what I can do with this to make it harder, too...

[Clam]

I thought we were trying to make levels for a more general audience, rather than just the community? We don't need to make these levels difficult for the sake of it. Remember, we can use scoring and challenges to create more difficult goals.

[Dullstar]

That's true, but we're assuming this audience has played lemmings before.
About the 1-way arrow problem:  I made some changes to the level, and now they don't need to be there, because the new skill set makes it so you have to use every skill you have to beat the level, which is now 1 basher, 3 builders, 1 climber, and 1 miner.  Also, blocks were placed to solve the terrain problem.

As for tutorial levels for the general audience, I'll work on some, such as, for example, I could swap the trapdoor and the exit in the Ode to Ceiling Routes level, and make it a digging tutorial.