The Perfect Blend...

[GuyPerfect]

I don't want this to sound like an "I'm making an awesome Lemmings game" thread, so I'd like to stress that this is only for things that might conceivably, possibly become a project somewhere down the line in the distant future... if I feel like it... maybe.

Having officially played every Lemmings game now (including Adventures of Lomax, which is actually a pretty decent game), I'm considering the merits of making one of my own and, if I do, the mechanics and features of such a project. No need to question my capabilities: I don't stick to Game Maker and Rich-Text for help files. I have game programming experience, so... Well, just pretend I'm the best there ever was and don't worry about it. It's not the how I'm concerned with at this point. Just the what.

For a few years I've been in this little side-scroller mood. Even though today's technology can produce the most breathtaking of 3D graphics doesn't mean you have to make 3D games with it. While side-scrolling games with 3D graphics (see: Super Smash Bros.) can be pulled off to good effect, I'm currently a big fan of old-fashioned, comical, hand-drawn 2D (like the new Wario Land). I can't stand pixelated graphics, personally. They were fine when that's all there was, but brand new fan projects end up sticking with the retro look and it just feels off because there's so much good out there that can be done... So long story short, this theoretical, non-existant project would be a high-res 2D game with comical, hand-drawn graphics.

Throughout my experiences in the Lemmings plethora of good and bad software workmanship, I've been able to put together a list of things that I like and dislike about each of the games and what I think would be good for a new game:

• I don't like unlimited Blockers. Lemmings 3 (All New World/Chronicles) allows you to do this, and while it's convenient, going back and playing Lemmings 2 afterwards really opened my eyes to how much more interesting the levels are when you don't have all the Lemmings corraled all the time. Sports 10, anyone?
  
• I like the Lemmings 2 idea of a larger assortment of skills, where only a small selection is available in any given level. Likewise, I like the idea of putting skill items on the level itself like Lemmings 3. The best compromise I can think of is that picking up a skill on the map puts it in your global inventory for any Lemming to use. "You receive 3 Floater!" and what-not.
  
• If saving Lemmings for use in later levels is a goal, the levels should not require the Lemmings to die. Exploder should not be a requirement! It bothered me to no end being forced to kill off much of my Classic tribe, especially since you need to save 53 for a golden piece of the talisman. That was nuts.
  
• Revolution's connecting edges made things a lot more interesting, though I'm not sure there's any good way to present that with a flat display...
  
• Blockers should be able to stop blocking. Using a Jumper works on the Attractor; why not Blocker? Perhaps using the Blocker skill a second time makes it back into a Walker?
  
• Levels should be designed to minimize the use of the "hero" Lemming: the one that builds the path for all the others to take while distracted by a Blocker or Attractor. That's just boring. Even simple multitasking is an improvement. Nothing crazy that requires at least five pointing devices, but something a little more than The One.
  
• Each stage definitely needs to have a different music than the previous one, even if there are only two to choose from and they alternate. The bagpipes are haunting me in my dreams.
  
• I liked the fan. I want to see it make a comeback.
  
• No blood. Lemmings 3's trap animations were cute, but it just seems so out-of-place. Gotta go for that E rating, after all!
  

That's all I can think of for now. Anyone else have anything they've always wanted to see/not see in a Lemmings game?

[Clam]

Hey GP, welcome to the forums!

I've got a few ideas, but I'll start by sharing my opinions on the above. (Apologies in advance for the HUGE post. I like to be thorough ) Firstly though I'd like to stress that none of the concepts in the Lemmings series are necessarily "good" or "bad", as they lead to very different styles of gameplay which may or may not appeal to some.


Unlimited blockers - I agree that this, as well as super micromanagement of builders/diggers, is a little frivolous. Having full control over every lemming does take away some of the frustration that was present in the original game, and allows you to focus more on other aspects, but you lose the thrill of having a horde of mindless critters heading for their doom. And after all, isn't that what Lemmings is about?

More skills - Personally I didn't like this as it took away some of the great simplicity of the original game. The original eight skills are easy to use, even for first-timers. IMHO, any additional skills should be similarly easy to get to grips with (eg. jumper, runner, swimmer, filler), whereas some of the other skills in L2 are certainly not. Also, skills that are essentialy the same as existing ones (like the stomper) are unnecessary.

Pickups - This is a tough one. Having to collect pickups before using skills reduces the freedom (and the requirement) of the player to use them creatively and invent a solution from start to finish. On the other hand, I like the idea of the skills being available in a particular location and making the player go and get them.

Saving lemmings for future levels - I'd leave this idea and go back to the original way. My reason is this: some of the best levels from the first game are the ones where only a few lemmings fall from the trapdoor. These added some real flavor and diversity to the game. Now, to have this sort of level in a tribe starting with 60 lemmings and carrying them through, you'd have to sacrifice a ton of lemmings in the levels leading up to it. Because of this, such a level would have to be left to the end (even if it isn't the hardest one), or be followed up by levels with heaps of "bonus" lemmings, which would be too predictable. Basically, what I'm saying here is that the order of levels should be determined by difficulty and not the number of lemmings.

Sacrificing lemmings - To me, this is an essential part of the game. Things like choosing who to bomb and where, death drops straight from the trapdoor and other situations where the best you can do is to minimise losses rather than eliminate them entirely, add a whole dimension to the game that L2 and L3 sorely lack. The absolute 100% requirement in L3 is a definite no. To go with this, though (and something which definitely should have been present in L2) there has to be something that you can see before and during the level to tell you how many you need to save. This should be a number rather than a percentage. A display of the "death toll" to date would be nice too

Connecting edges - I haven't played Revo so I don't know.

Unblocking - this is definitely a good idea, although there are plenty of methods available already for removing a blocker. This also ties in with another idea of mine (which I might post later).

Less "hero lemming" levels - Definitely. "Hunt the Nessy" and similar are terrible levels and a total waste of time. However, if you want to share the work among multiple lemmings, you need to be careful with "split focus" situations where you need to keep track of two or more widely separated groups at once. A pet hate of mine is the "snap" moment, where two lemmings require orders at exactly the same time. Any situation where you need to pause to give multiple orders is bad IMO. And what do you mean by "five pointing devices" and "The One"?

Music - I'd go with about a dozen tracks (classical and/or traditional music seems appropriate for Lemmings). The 17 tracks of the original game is probably too many, but the 6 in ONML are too few IMO (both DOS version, I don't know if the others had more or less). How about shuffling the tracks so you don't know what you'll get each time?

Fan - I thought this was a little to fiddly to work with (also, see my points on simplicity and micromanagement).

Blood - fair enough. That's entirely your call, I guess, but honestly I'd have to agree here. This trap (conveniently available in smiley form :shutup: ) is a case in point.


Now for some random thoughts of my own:

- Adjustable release rate. One thing I hated about L2 was waiting for 50 lemmings to trail through to the exit after I've solved the puzzle. Besides that though, it gives you more options, like dodging traps through "safety in numbers" (actually for an updated version this possibility could be reduced or removed).
- Fast forward and replay features are huge for reducing frustration. EricLang's level editing and playtesting program, Lemmix, also inclided frameskip and savestates, which might be worth considering.
- Mix up the themes from one level to the next, rather than having tribes, to add variety while playing through the game.
- Eliminate the "blocks" system of L3 and 3D. This seems archaic to me and wouldn't fit with your "comical, hand-drawn" idea.

I have a some more ideas still, but I'll let others share their thoughts first.

[GuyPerfect]

Hey GP, welcome to the forums!

Thanks! It was the least-dead Lemmings forum community I could find. (-:

More skills - Personally I didn't like this as it took away some of the great simplicity of the original game. The original eight skills are easy to use, even for first-timers. IMHO, any additional skills should be similarly easy to get to grips with (eg. jumper, runner, swimmer, filler), whereas some of the other skills in L2 are certainly not. Also, skills that are essentialy the same as existing ones (like the stomper) are unnecessary.

Agreed on all points with the exception that I like not having the same 8 skills every single level. The really quirky skills (Thrower, Pegasus Wings, Planter) can be omitted, and the ones that are only moderately different from existing skills (Stomper, Club Basher, Rock Climber) can bear to go as well. Some of the permanent powers are nice to keep, though, such as Runner, Swimmer and the like.

Saving lemmings for future levels - I'd leave this idea and go back to the original way.

I agree, for reasons in addition to what you provided, that this is probably the best idea. For each level, if you get X Lemmings and have to save Y, it's a lot less emphasis on collecting 'em all rather than solving the puzzle with the available tools.

Connecting edges - I haven't played Revo so I don't know.

The game took place on the surface of a cylinder, which means the left and right edges were continuous not unlike Pac-Man. However, unlike Pac-Man, since the camera could pan around the level, you didn't get the impression that Lemmings were warping from one side to the other. Many levels consisted of solutions that involved working Lemmings completely around the cylinder multiple times, which isn't easy to represent in a 2D graphics environment.

And what do you mean by "five pointing devices" and "The One"?

Five pointing devices will allow you to give instructions to five different Lemmings simultaneously, is all. Just an exaggeration. The One is the aformentioned hero Lemming.

Music - I'd go with about a dozen tracks (classical and/or traditional music seems appropriate for Lemmings). The 17 tracks of the original game is probably too many, but the 6 in ONML are too few IMO (both DOS version, I don't know if the others had more or less). How about shuffling the tracks so you don't know what you'll get each time?

I intend to do a large number of remixes consisting of selections from all Lemmings games. My current idea is to have every stage associated with one particular track (not necessarily having a unique tune for each level), but it's also crossed my mind that the music can change playlist-style while you're working. Listening to the same thing for too long can be maddening, and some levels certainly make you sit there a while.

Fast forward and replay features are huge for reducing frustration. EricLang's level editing and playtesting program, Lemmix, also inclided frameskip and savestates, which might be worth considering.

In addition to adjustable release rate, these are good ideas. I can't see save states being a part of the main product, though. Wouldn't frame skip fall under the category of fast forward?

Mix up the themes from one level to the next, rather than having tribes, to add variety while playing through the game.

My current considerations will be removing the Tribes concept altogether. It's fun seeing different colors every now and then, but I can't see it having any practical application, and that's a lot of hand-drawn cels to draw! The Lemmings all have different costumes.That's not a simple palette-swap like Lemmings 2. As for variety, well, basically all the Tribe themes will be lumped into the main levels. First you're out in the wilderness one level, then it's medieval, then all of a sudden it's snowing in the next level, etc.

Eliminate the "blocks" system of L3 and 3D. This seems archaic to me and wouldn't fit with your "comical, hand-drawn" idea.

Correct. In fact, I'm working out some of the techincal details that would enable the stage geometry to be mathematical instead of a per-pixel collision model. This is something that will be necessary for scaling the graphics between standard definition and high definition (as well as 4:3 and 16:9 aspect ratios) without altering gameplay, plus it'll be fun to do. It'll also allow all graphics to remain antialiased, even after you destroy a chunk of terrain. Oh, and the Filler skill. Frightful to implement, but it'd be awesome. (-:

I have a some more ideas still, but I'll let others share their thoughts first.

Awww. C'mon!

I should probably also have mentioned that I would like to make a multiplayer option in some way. I'm aware the original Lemmings had a 2-player mode, but I honestly haven't done much work with it. Any suggestions?

[Mindless]

Hey GP, welcome to the forums!

Thanks! It was the least-dead Lemmings forum community I could find. (-:

We're not dead... just dormant. 

[Clam]

The game took place on the surface of a cylinder, which means the left and right edges were continuous not unlike Pac-Man.

I said that I haven't played Revolution, not that I've never heard of it . I'm just not sure how great an effect that has on strategy etc.

I can't see save states being a part of the main product, though. Wouldn't frame skip fall under the category of fast forward?

The frameskip feature in Lemmix allows you to instantly jump forward 10 seconds or 1 minute. Essentially, it serves the same purpose as fast forward, but both are useful in different situations.

Awww. C'mon!

Well, it was getting late when I posted that. Here's a couple more for ya

- I hear Revolution had a different method of unlocking levels, rather than the standard "linear" way. Maybe you could have a few levels to choose from (per difficulty level) at one time.

- Steel needs to be totally bulletproof, like in L2. The indestructable nature of it should be inherent in the steel terrain, not something that is added over the top (like in L1/ONML), for consistency. There are surprisingly many ways to get through steel in the original game

- I liked how in L3 you could use the building and digging skills in multiple directions, but as I said before I thought the ability to change direction at will was a little over the top. The L3 system of using bricks/spades as you go encourages this somewhat, but using one skill point for each order (the original way) would not. So what about having builders and diggers go in 8 or 16 directions (minus a couple - down for builders, up for diggers), or even a free choice where you point to the destination and click to make the lemming go there. Maybe even remove the 12 brick limit for builders. This idea comes from the roper in Lemmings 2 - the freedom of choice made this one of the greatest skills ever.

- Following on from the above, you could display an arrow in the direction of the cursor to show where the lemming will go when the skill is used. The arrow would end at the first impassable obstacle - a wall or ceiling for a builder, or steel or thin air for a digger. As in L3, you would have a green arrow if the skill can be used, and a short red arrow when it can't. Even if you stick to the original skills, this idea could be worked in, with an arrow appearing when you have selected the skill (if it is available) and have the pointer over a lemming. You could even have an arrow or a cross on the level where a bomber would explode after a 5 second coundtown

Another thought I had, which would probably be better for a small modification of the original game rather than a full remake, is a sort of "power mode", where a lemming using a skill gains additional powers. These would be available in the same way as the other skills, either with a fixed number available from the start, or as a pickup on the map if you choose to go that route. I have some ideas as to what this could do for the original 8 skills, but it might be tricky to make this work for some L2 skills like the runner and swimmer. I'm sure I could come up with something though.

[Simon]

Hi!

Fast forward and replay features are huge for reducing frustration. EricLang's level editing and playtesting program, Lemmix, also inclided frameskip and savestates, which might be worth considering.

In addition to adjustable release rate, these are good ideas. I can't see save states being a part of the main product, though.

In my opinion, a good game is always a good tool as well. Providing savestates would increase the user efficiency of trying new ideas in a level. I'd opt for anything that helps! (in singleplayer at least, heh. :-D)

I should probably also have mentioned that I would like to make a multiplayer option in some way.

If you're planning competetive multiplayer, I think I've got some interesting ideas to share. While writing L++, which has networked multiplayer, there were lots of unexpected design corrections.

Although I use identical game mechanics for singleplayer and multiplayer, a multiplayer level calls for a very different skillset. The Amiga/SNES two-player mode used the regular skillset of Climber, Floater, ..., Digger. This is ideal for the singleplayer mode, however:

Lemmings control should be a little more direct in multiplayer than in singleplayer.

With more direct control, not every single level has to be a huge bunch of terrain, and we get a better chance to recover from other players' sabotage attempts. Thus, I implemented some skills from L2. As you are keen to improve upon what's already there in L1, such a concept might fit to your game as well!

Exploder with knockback - This is the main way to dislodge enemy blockers, at the expense of an own lemming. One can even use it to punish players who hoard all their lemmings directly under the entrance hatch, which could be very boring. Sneak a few lemmings in, BOOM, everyone's flying all over the place. :-D

Before I included this Exploder, we had to limit the blocker skill strictly. Blockers placed on steel were absolutely permanent, and if the goals weren't set on steel, you could simply dig away all the gound under enemy goals. Remember, removing terrain is easier and faster than re-building it. For this reason, the original Amiga/SNES levels often didn't feature blockers at all, which limits the level terrain possibilities harshly. For almost every terrain, blockers are needed to control lemming flow. But the stronger they are, the better of a strategy hoarding/trailblazing (using a single hero) becomes. Thus, this exploder regulates it again, which is what we want.

Walker skill - This works exactly as in L3: It reverts workers back to walkers, including blockers, or turns walkers around. This is the more direct lemming control mentioned above. It's pretty important if you need fast and accurate control of a few certain lemmings, which is common in multiplayer.

Jumper skill - This allows to extract a single lemming from a well-hoarded crowd, and generally makes it easier to get around. However, if we were going to include the Jumper in every multiplayer map, along with walker, blocker, knockback exploder, a lot of the eight possible skill panels are already full. :-) The map creator must be able to choose what skills to give, like for singleplayer levels.

More building skills - This should remedy the fact that it's easier to destroy terrain than to build up to new places. Platformer and especially Roper seem like ideal additions to a multiplayer game.

Level design - Every player wants to make a path from his hatch(es) to his goal. Thus, for maximum fun, have the players' paths cross each other - early, and often. Of course, give enough space and freedom to allow different strategies, but always make them interfere with each other by having crossed paths!

Revolution's connecting edges made things a lot more interesting, though I'm not sure there's any good way to present that with a flat display...

For multiplayer, this is very important because it balances the starting positions.

I don't know how to implement it the best way. I myself just scroll freely over the edges and let the stuff from the other side scroll into view, so that one can't notice any seam. Of course, this feels odd at first if the level size is one screen, but you can scroll freely in all four directions. :-D

-- Simon

[GuyPerfect]

- I hear Revolution had a different method of unlocking levels, rather than the standard "linear" way. Maybe you could have a few levels to choose from (per difficulty level) at one time.

The stage select screen is a big triangle starting with a column of 3 on the left, then 4, then 5, etc. all the way up to 14 on the right. Completing a stage unlocks the adjacent two stages in the next column over. So stage 1 in the first column unlocks stages 1 and 2 in the second column, stage 2 in the first column unlocks stages 2 and 3 in the second column and so-forth. It's easier to show with a picture.


(Click for full version)

Easier stages are on the left, and harder stages are to the right. I really like this particular setup, even if it does clutter the screen, because it gives you more options to keep playing in the event you get stumped on one level and want to move onto something else for a while.

- Steel needs to be totally bulletproof, like in L2. The indestructable nature of it should be inherent in the steel terrain, not something that is added over the top (like in L1/ONML), for consistency. There are surprisingly many ways to get through steel in the original game

I honestly can't fathom how someone can design indestructible terrain that can be nonetheless destroyed. It doesn't make any sense. Either someone was really lazy or there's a major bug in the system. It won't be a problem. In the setup I have in mind, terrain deformation will ignore indestructible terrain, so it won't even be possible to bypass it.

- I liked how in L3 you could use the building and digging skills in multiple directions, but as I said before I thought the ability to change direction at will was a little over the top. The L3 system of using bricks/spades as you go encourages this somewhat, but using one skill point for each order (the original way) would not. So what about having builders and diggers go in 8 or 16 directions (minus a couple - down for builders, up for diggers), or even a free choice where you point to the destination and click to make the lemming go there.

In Kirby's Adventure, you had Fire (flamethrower breath) and Fireball (self projectile), but in Kirby Super Star, you had a generic "Fire" ability that could do a number of different fire-based attacks (including the two from Adventure) depending on how it was used. It's the same idea here: should a Lemming have a single ability that can take on the functions of Builder, Platformer and Stacker depending on how it's used? I've definitely considered it, but I'll have to run it through some more scrutiny before I decide one way or the other.

Maybe even remove the 12 brick limit for builders. This idea comes from the roper in Lemmings 2 - the freedom of choice made this one of the greatest skills ever.

Even the Roper had a maximum distance. I think the building tools should stay at 12 blocks. However, the idea has occurred to me that a Lemming can be assigned as a "designated Builder" and will automatically grant itself another Builder skill from your inventory every time it runs out of blocks... so long as you still have Builders left and it doesn't hit anything.

Another thought I had, which would probably be better for a small modification of the original game rather than a full remake, is a sort of "power mode", where a lemming using a skill gains additional powers.

You've lost me on this one. Could you explain in greater detail?

In my opinion, a good game is always a good tool as well. Providing savestates would increase the user efficiency of trying new ideas in a level. I'd opt for anything that helps! (in singleplayer at least, heh. :-D)

I reeeeeally don't know if that'd be a wise implementation. I imagine all my projects being released in the mainstream, so I like to have my products maintain a level of professionalism that I'd expect to see in a retail game. Save states encourages haphazarded experimentation more than planning out a course from the start, which removes a big part of what Lemmings is all about in my opinion.

Exploder with knockback - This is the main way to dislodge enemy blockers, at the expense of an own lemming. One can even use it to punish players who hoard all their lemmings directly under the entrance hatch, which could be very boring. Sneak a few lemmings in, BOOM, everyone's flying all over the place. :-D

You are mean for making me drool. This would also be a good place to implement the Grenadier from Lemmings 3. It's like the Thrower, but the projectile bounces around and explodes. (-:

Walker skill - This works exactly as in L3: It reverts workers back to walkers, including blockers, or turns walkers around. This is the more direct lemming control mentioned above. It's pretty important if you need fast and accurate control of a few certain lemmings, which is common in multiplayer.

This was my auxiliary idea for making Blockers stop blocking. It definitely makes a lot more sense than having a Miner start building a bridge when he's down far enough. I'll toss this into my bin of "things to strongly consider."

I don't know how to implement [continuous edges] the best way. I myself just scroll freely over the edges and let the stuff from the other side scroll into view, so that one can't notice any seam. Of course, this feels odd at first if the level size is one screen, but you can scroll freely in all four directions. :-D

Copernicus-style scrolling can definitely be disorienting, so I think I'd rather omit the feature altogether. As with mutli-function abilities, I'll have to consider it further at a later time.

-----

I've considered competitive multiplayer as well as cooperative. Co-op stages where each player has a different starting location and a different selection of abilities can really make for some interesting puzzle situations. After all, you can't control the other person's Lemmings, nor can you use skills from their inventory.

Would it be a bad idea to allow more than two teams? Forget about colors for a minute. Would three or four groups of Lemmings get too crowded?

[Clam]

The stage select screen is a big triangle starting with a column of 3 on the left, then 4, then 5, etc. all the way up to 14 on the right. Completing a stage unlocks the adjacent two stages in the next column over. So stage 1 in the first column unlocks stages 1 and 2 in the second column, stage 2 in the first column unlocks stages 2 and 3 in the second column and so-forth. It's easier to show with a picture.

Thanks for the pic. That definitely seems a good idea, so you don't get completely stuck because you can't solve one particular level.

Even the Roper had a maximum distance. I think the building tools should stay at 12 blocks. However, the idea has occurred to me that a Lemming can be assigned as a "designated Builder" and will automatically grant itself another Builder skill from your inventory every time it runs out of blocks... so long as you still have Builders left and it doesn't hit anything.

I know the roper has a maximum distance. What I meant was the idea of choosing any direction you like comes from the roper. As for the brick limit, I figured that if a digger can keep going as long as it is unimpeded, then maybe a builder could too. It doesn't have to, of course. I like the idea of auto-reloading though. And what do you think of the "arrows" idea? I think this would remove a great deal of frustration from the game by taking the guesswork out of aiming. Leave this out of multiplayer mode of course

And I agree that the walker skill makes a lot of sense for making a lemming stop building or digging, or to undo a blocker.

You've lost me on this one. Could you explain in greater detail?

In addition to having stockpiles of your 8 skills (or however many), you would also have a certain amount of "power ups" (this sounds kind of lame - preferably call them something else). When a lemming is performing an action, you could use this to activate a special ability. For example, a climber could climb an overhang like a rock climber, or a builder could gain more bricks (perhaps an infinite amount until he hits something).

I've considered competitive multiplayer as well as cooperative.

Co-op multiplayer mode is a fantastic idea. I've played Burnout Paradise (very different game, I know) and the co-op multiplayer challenges make this twice the game it would be otherwise. I don't think 4 players would be too many for a co-op mode (but also include 2 and 3 player levels), as long as the total number of lemmings is less than 100 or so. Competitive multiplayer should be strictly 1v1 to prevent doubleteaming.

[GuyPerfect]

Just jotting down some notes, here. This is effectively every Lemmings skill and whether or not I'd like to include it in this project.

Legend:
+ = Considering inclusion
- = Considering omission
? = Not sure either way
Green = Was present in Lemmings
Blue = Only available in Lemmings 3
Orange = New skill idea

+ Archer
+ Attractor
- Ballooner - Requires use of Fan
+ Basher - Can be combined with Digger and Miner
+ Bazooka - Can be combined with Mortar
+ Blocker
+ Bomber
+ Builder - Can be combined with Platformer and Stacker
+ Climber
- Club Basher - Too similar to Basher
+ Digger - Can be combined with Basher and Miner
- Diver - Excessively situational
+ Exploder
- Fencer - Too similar to Basher
+ Filler
- Flame Thrower - Anecdotal
+ Floater
- Glue Pourer - Too quirky
+ Grenadier - Fun for multiplay
- Hadouken - Copyright infringement
- Hang Glider - Requires use of Fan
+ Helmet - Protects a Lemming from one trap and incorporates an Adventures of Lomax element
- Hopper - Quirky
- Icarus Wings - Requires use of Fan
- Jet Pack - Requires use of Fan
+ Jumper
- Kayaker - Too similar to Swimmer
? Laser Blaster - Good tool, but is it too quirky?
- Magic Carpet - Anecdotal + Fan
+ Magno Booter
+ Miner - Can be combined with Basher and Digger
+ Mortar - Can be combined with Bazooka
+ Paintballer - Replaces Hadouken for multiplay and incorporates a Lemmings Paintball element
- Parachuter - Too similar to Floater + Fan
- Planter - Quirky
+ Platformer - Can be combined with Builder and Platformer
- Pole Vaulter - Quirky
- Rock Climber - Too similar to climber
- Roller - Too similar to Runner
+ Roper
+ Runner
- Sand Pourer - Anecdotal
- Scooper - Too similar to Miner
+ Shimmer
? Skater - Is ice a good idea?
- Skier - Highly situational
+ Slider
- Spearer - Quirky
+ Stacker - Can be combined with Builder and Platformer
- Stomper - Too similar to Digger
? Superlem - Fun to use, but is it a good idea?
- Surfer - Too similar to Swimmer + Fan
+ Swimmer
- Thrower - Anecdotal
- Twister - Requires use of Fan
+ Walker - Stops a Lemming from doing stuff and can turn them around

[Clam]

That looks like a fairly comprehensive list. A couple of things I'm not sure about:

• Blockers and attractors fill similar roles. You probably won't need both, especially if you use walkers for unblocking. Also, the attractor in L2 was inconsistent at times so you would need to be careful with implementation.


• Archers were difficult to use (though not as bad as spearers), and I'd consider them to be too quirky.


• Surely the magno boots are too quirky? I'd suggest that the ones you've marked with a "?" are as well.


• Sliders do pretty much the same thing as Floaters.


• Which bomber skill are you likely to include? Exploder, L2-style bomber or L3-style bombs?


• I'm worried that paintball guns would turn multiplayer into a shooter, akin to Worms. Killing the other team's lemmings instead of letting them wander to their own deaths seems against the spirit of Lemmings to me. Maybe there could be another game mode where the aim is to kill the other team's lemmings (with guns, explosives, other tools or even hand-to-hand combat) instead of leading them to the exit. The bazooka/mortar might be best left to this mode too.

[GuyPerfect]

• I was under the impression that I had a really good reason for keeping Attractor, but I can't remember what it was. However, don't assume that Walker will be available in every level.
  
• I found Archer pretty easy to work with. Plus, it's a mouse-control skill, so I'd like to keep it.
  
• Magno Boots too quirky? They have specific, practical uses. It's not like dropping some seeds for a small platform to appear for no apparent reason. As for all the question marks, what qualifies as too quirky?
  
• Sliders let you change direction and they won't save you if you fall too far. I consider them distinctly different from Floater.
  
• Exploder's in the list, and I haven't decided what would make the best Bomber. If it blows up immediately, it's like an Exploder that doesn't kill the Lemming. If you leave it laying around for a few seconds, it's only safe for The Hero.
  
• Paintballer, in addition to being a mouse-control skill, can be granted in limited quantities. 5 Paintballers in a level means you can't just wail away at the other guy the whole time.

[Clam]

I found Archer pretty easy to work with. Plus, it's a mouse-control skill, so I'd like to keep it.

Yes, it's mouse-controlled, which is nice, but it's difficult to judge the effect of gravity over long distances.

Magno Boots too quirky? They have specific, practical uses. It's not like dropping some seeds for a small platform to appear for no apparent reason. As for all the question marks, what qualifies as too quirky?

In general, I'd consider a skill to be "quirky" if it is too far removed from the original "classic" skills (and the ones in L3). The skater was far too situational too.

Sliders let you change direction and they won't save you if you fall too far. I consider them distinctly different from Floater.

Good point. The impression that I got from L2 is that this was just a substitute floater. The slider didn't turn around if there was no overhang below the wall, and often in L2 this was the case.

Paintballer, in addition to being a mouse-control skill, can be granted in limited quantities. 5 Paintballers in a level means you can't just wail away at the other guy the whole time.

I still think it goes against the spirit of the game to directly kill the other team's lemmings.

[GuyPerfect]

Yes, it's mouse-controlled, which is nice, but it's difficult to judge the effect of gravity over long distances.

I understand the Archer to be used for short-distance platform construction, not cross-country bulls-eyes. The fact that it can be fired in any direction is very handy.

In general, I'd consider a skill to be "quirky" if it is too far removed from the original "classic" skills

I consider quirkiness to be things that are either impractical or so eccentric that they don't make much sense (Icarus Wings is a good example). Magno Boots don't fall into either category. As for comparing them to the "classic" skills, I'm afraid I can't accept that as a reason against new skills. If adhering to the original Lemmings game for the sake of tradition or familiarity was all that mattered, I might as well do a remake. However, my goal is to create a new Lemmings experience.

I still think [Paintballer] goes against the spirit of the game to directly kill the other team's lemmings.

The spirit of multiplayer is getting as many Lemmings as possible--regardless of team--into your base. It wouldn't make much sense to do away with Lemmings on the other team if they will end up on your own score sheet. The Paintballer would be better used to disrupt a Builder or Blocker rather than simply reduce the number of total Lemmings from the other team. It has specific strategic value that would add a lot of flavor to the experience.

[Clam]

I understand the Archer to be used for short-distance platform construction, not cross-country bulls-eyes.

I can recall a few situations in L2 where extremely precise shots were required. There were a couple of levels that required you to shoot an arrow straight up (so it would land vertically and block the lemmings) in tight spaces, as well as one where you needed a fairly accurate shot from a distance to create a platform so the lemmings can fall down safely. If you want to avoid long-distance shots, then many of the remaining applications of the archer (blocking, bridgebuilding) are covered by the roper.

I consider quirkiness to be things that are either impractical or so eccentric that they don't make much sense

OK, that's probably a better way to put it. I can see the magno boots and superlem having a practical use. On the other hand, they might encourage a "hero" strategy because they grant a single lemming access to a different part of the level that the others can't reach.

Right now I don't want to say that these skills definitely "should" or "shouldn't" be in the game. I would like to point out though that if you do include them, you need to be very careful when making the levels to avoid hero strategies and strategies that are needlessly difficult to execute, and also to prevent backroutes (unintended solutions).

The spirit of multiplayer is getting as many Lemmings as possible--regardless of team--into your base.

I'm not talking about the spirit of multiplayer here (and besides, what you've written there is the goal of multiplayer, not the spirit). I just don't think guns have any place in a Lemmings game.

I can see this being used by a lemming under your control heading for the enemy's exit to knock off some of their own lemmings before they get there. To me, that seems like a pretty low strategy and something that shouldn't be encouraged. Besides, there are plenty of other ways to disrupt enemy lemmings - knockback explosions for example.

[GuyPerfect]

If you want to avoid long-distance shots, then many of the remaining applications of the archer (blocking, bridgebuilding) are covered by the roper.

One Superlem for each Lemming, amirite?

I just don't think guns have any place in a Lemmings game. [...] there are plenty of other ways to disrupt enemy lemmings - knockback explosions for example.

I don't understand why paintball guns should be banned but it's still okay to be a suicide bomber...