[DISC] How should the Lemming save count be displayed in the skill panel?

[WillLem]

SuperLemmix now displays the save count in red until the requirement is met, at which point it turns to green. This change was made because it's tidier and (potentially) less confusing that the negative-number display used in NeoLemmix.
--->

The save requirement is also now displayed on the window caption, for additional reference.


However, Flopsy brought to my attention that the caption isn't useful for those who play the game in Full Screen, also noting that there is now no way to know how close to the save requirement the player is during gameplay. Here's his comment from the SuperLemmix Welcome Pack topic:

it's more a problem with SuperLemmix itself because once the level has started, you don't know how much to save until the number turns green but until then, it's not obvious.

So, I'm opening this discussion up to get people's thoughts on the best way to resolve this.

Potential solutions:

A) Display X/Y rather than just X, where X is the number saved and Y is the requirement.

Pros: The information is always clearly visible (but does it need to be?).
Cons: Uses more panel space (which is already at a premium even with the extended display) and adds clutter.

B) Display the save requirement as a panel hint when this part of the panel (i.e. the hatch number) is hovered over. The hint could say "SAVE Y" where Y is the total requirement or "Z TO BE SAVED" where Z is the remaining number that needs to be saved.

Pros: Makes neat use of the panel hints feature, keeps the information accessible but inobtrusive.
Cons: Players might not be aware of panel hints, or might not have them activated.

C) Change the number itself when hovered over. As with suggestion B, the number could change to display either the total requirement, or the remaining number to be saved - this could even be optional, with both being available.

Pros: No panel clutter, keeps the information accessible but inobtrusive.
Cons: Extra coding work (wouldn't take long though, to be fair), and players might not be aware of the feature once implemented.

Suggestions/comments welcome!

[Simon]

Yes, this must be visible at all times.

Reason: It's the one and only goal! It's as important as showing the number of skills left.

The NL negative save requirement was already a hack to save space. We count up to 0, which is a win, then we count extra saves as positive. I don't remember why exactly I copied the NL design into Lix, I think it's also because of lack of space. It's a candidate for revisiting in Lix. I should user-test it with new players.

Your ideas B and C keep it invisible, and new players won't find it (mabye user-test this, but I'll assume it, sounds plausible enough). NL/Lix show it always, but it's not necessarily clear. Your idea A is the best. Thought experiment: You put this back in (e.g., as in idea A) and remove something else (to make room). You'll probably get complaints, but overall you'll get fewer complaints, the nastiness will be lower (of having something else removed and the save requirement back).

If you don't like A because of other reasons than the space, consider to reimplement NL's negative count.


If you don't like A because of the space: Random ideas for how to make room:

Print the number of yet-to-spawn lemmings directly on the hatch. You don't always need this information, but when you do, you'll look near the hatches anyway. This sounds interesting, as in, not like outright rejectable. I'm even thinking about printing it only when the mouse hovers over a hatch ... I don't want to make any final calls here.

Print the save requirement or the save count on the exits. Problem: This is bad (e.g., it's worse than printing the yet-to-spawn count on the hatches) because the save requirement is always important, not only when we scroll near the exit.

Exits close when you run out of time, and you print a big fat icon on the closed exits. It's natural to print the time limit onto the exits, then it's in the same place as the warning. Same (but weaker) problem as printing the save requirement on the exits.

Ditch the minimap and print the save requirement there. You've fixed the zoom bug, the minimap is less urgent to have now.

Create a second infobar at the top of the screen.

-- Simon

[WillLem]

Yes, this must be visible at all times.
...
Your ideas B and C keep it invisible, and new players won't find it

Agreed, happy to brainstorm some other ideas.

Your idea A is the best.

It's my least favourite due to real estate, so...

Print the number of yet-to-spawn lemmings directly on the hatch.

Yet-to-spawn is indeed probably the first thing that could be removed from the panel. Active lemmings is more important, and also displays red when there aren't enough, which is useful information to the player.

A hatch count isn't out of the question; we already display one whenever a hatch has a cap, so... why not also do this when there is no cap? It amounts to the same thing, in terms of pure UI. Style creators can also create custom numbers to suit their hatches, if they wish. There is also the benefit of knowing how many lems are left to spawn per-hatch in multi-hatch levels, which could also be useful.

The only downside is more screen clutter (which could be mitigated by making it optional). Even so, this one's definitely worth considering.

I'm even thinking about printing it only when the mouse hovers over a hatch

Yes, this could also work.

Print the save requirement or the save count on the exits.

This I'm less sure about. It could be confusing because exits sometimes have caps and, by contrast to hatch caps, they necessarily are displaying different information (i.e. how many lemmings can exit here, as opposed to how many must exit).

It's natural to print the time limit onto the exits, then it's in the same place as the warning.

I'm open to displaying the time limit somewhere else, but probably not in the gameplay area. It's another thing that should always be visible.

Ditch the minimap

When this was last proposed, there was a 6:1 majority in favour of keeping the minimap. I doubt that preferences will have changed much in the meantime, so the minimap will stay for now. It can perhaps be revisited in the absence of a more suitable solution.

Create a second infobar at the top of the screen.

This could work. Or, perhaps, add another one to the panel area. Since the panel is now always hi-res, it may even be possible to make the text and icons slightly smaller (whilst maintaining - or even increasing - resolution) so that more can fit on.


Of the suggestions so far, a hatch number seems the most appropriate solution; we're used to seeing it anyway (in levels with hatch lemming caps), and it could easily be made optional if people would prefer a less-cluttered UI in favour of knowing how many lemmings are yet to spawn.

Here's another suggestion, whilst we're at the ideas phase:

Instead of displaying "0" and counting up as lemmings exit, we could display (e.g.) "80" in red, and count down. When the count reaches "0", the count then changes to green and switches to "80" (showing that the save requirement has been met), and counts up if any further lemmings exit, thus showing the grand total.

This might appear confusing at first, but I imagine that players would catch on quite quickly. SuperLemmix users (if there are any! ) are already used to seeing the save requirement in red whilst it hasn't been met, so it would maintain the current status quo to some extent whilst also keeping the display clutter-free.

Thoughts?

[Simon]

I agree that it's better to have the save count and the time limit always visible.

Instead of displaying "0" and counting up as lemmings exit, we could display (e.g.) "80" in red, and count down.

Don't rely on color alone. It's hard to guess what the colors mean. Red can mean stop or bad or loss or ..., but you want to convey "not yet".

Use icons. You can change or add icons when you win the level. Icons and color together is strong.

What exactly was confusing about the minus sign? Or was the flagpole confusing?

-- Simon

[WillLem]

Instead of displaying "0" and counting up as lemmings exit, we could display (e.g.) "80" in red, and count down.

Don't rely on color alone.

The idea isn't auggesting only to rely on colour. There are also numbers and an icon, both of which are clear enough.

The part of the idea I'd like to get feedback on is whether counting down first, then up once the SR has been met, is a good enough way to keep all the information on screen at all times without adding any extra characters.

So far, I think it is. It might at least be worth a try. The effectiveness of these sorts of ideas usually becomes apparent once people are actually using it.

Use icons. You can change or add icons when you win the level.

Good idea, worth considering. We still need to know how to display the numbers though.

What exactly was confusing about the minus sign?

e.g. The SR is 80. I've saved 89 lemmings. The display reads 9.

That doesn't make as much sense as the display reading 89, whether or not we know what the SR is.

[Proxima]

e.g. The SR is 80. I've saved 89 lemmings. The display reads 9.

That doesn't make as much sense as the display reading 89, whether or not we know what the SR is.

How about instead +9 to mean "9 above SR" and -9 to mean "9 below SR"?