[DISC] How should the Lemming save count be displayed in the skill panel?

[WillLem]

SuperLemmix now displays the save count in red until the requirement is met, at which point it turns to green. This change was made because it's tidier and (potentially) less confusing that the negative-number display used in NeoLemmix.
--->

The save requirement is also now displayed on the window caption, for additional reference.


However, Flopsy brought to my attention that the caption isn't useful for those who play the game in Full Screen, also noting that there is now no way to know how close to the save requirement the player is during gameplay. Here's his comment from the SuperLemmix Welcome Pack topic:

it's more a problem with SuperLemmix itself because once the level has started, you don't know how much to save until the number turns green but until then, it's not obvious.

So, I'm opening this discussion up to get people's thoughts on the best way to resolve this.

Potential solutions:

A) Display X/Y rather than just X, where X is the number saved and Y is the requirement.

Pros: The information is always clearly visible (but does it need to be?).
Cons: Uses more panel space (which is already at a premium even with the extended display) and adds clutter.

B) Display the save requirement as a panel hint when this part of the panel (i.e. the hatch number) is hovered over. The hint could say "SAVE Y" where Y is the total requirement or "Z TO BE SAVED" where Z is the remaining number that needs to be saved.

Pros: Makes neat use of the panel hints feature, keeps the information accessible but inobtrusive.
Cons: Players might not be aware of panel hints, or might not have them activated.

C) Change the number itself when hovered over. As with suggestion B, the number could change to display either the total requirement, or the remaining number to be saved - this could even be optional, with both being available.

Pros: No panel clutter, keeps the information accessible but inobtrusive.
Cons: Extra coding work (wouldn't take long though, to be fair), and players might not be aware of the feature once implemented.

Suggestions/comments welcome!

[Simon]

Yes, this must be visible at all times.

Reason: It's the one and only goal! It's as important as showing the number of skills left.

The NL negative save requirement was already a hack to save space. We count up to 0, which is a win, then we count extra saves as positive. I don't remember why exactly I copied the NL design into Lix, I think it's also because of lack of space. It's a candidate for revisiting in Lix. I should user-test it with new players.

Your ideas B and C keep it invisible, and new players won't find it (mabye user-test this, but I'll assume it, sounds plausible enough). NL/Lix show it always, but it's not necessarily clear. Your idea A is the best. Thought experiment: You put this back in (e.g., as in idea A) and remove something else (to make room). You'll probably get complaints, but overall you'll get fewer complaints, the nastiness will be lower (of having something else removed and the save requirement back).

If you don't like A because of other reasons than the space, consider to reimplement NL's negative count.


If you don't like A because of the space: Random ideas for how to make room:

Print the number of yet-to-spawn lemmings directly on the hatch. You don't always need this information, but when you do, you'll look near the hatches anyway. This sounds interesting, as in, not like outright rejectable. I'm even thinking about printing it only when the mouse hovers over a hatch ... I don't want to make any final calls here.

Print the save requirement or the save count on the exits. Problem: This is bad (e.g., it's worse than printing the yet-to-spawn count on the hatches) because the save requirement is always important, not only when we scroll near the exit.

Exits close when you run out of time, and you print a big fat icon on the closed exits. It's natural to print the time limit onto the exits, then it's in the same place as the warning. Same (but weaker) problem as printing the save requirement on the exits.

Ditch the minimap and print the save requirement there. You've fixed the zoom bug, the minimap is less urgent to have now.

Create a second infobar at the top of the screen.

-- Simon

[WillLem]

Yes, this must be visible at all times.
...
Your ideas B and C keep it invisible, and new players won't find it

Agreed, happy to brainstorm some other ideas.

Your idea A is the best.

It's my least favourite due to real estate, so...

Print the number of yet-to-spawn lemmings directly on the hatch.

Yet-to-spawn is indeed probably the first thing that could be removed from the panel. Active lemmings is more important, and also displays red when there aren't enough, which is useful information to the player.

A hatch count isn't out of the question; we already display one whenever a hatch has a cap, so... why not also do this when there is no cap? It amounts to the same thing, in terms of pure UI. Style creators can also create custom numbers to suit their hatches, if they wish. There is also the benefit of knowing how many lems are left to spawn per-hatch in multi-hatch levels, which could also be useful.

The only downside is more screen clutter (which could be mitigated by making it optional). Even so, this one's definitely worth considering.

I'm even thinking about printing it only when the mouse hovers over a hatch

Yes, this could also work.

Print the save requirement or the save count on the exits.

This I'm less sure about. It could be confusing because exits sometimes have caps and, by contrast to hatch caps, they necessarily are displaying different information (i.e. how many lemmings can exit here, as opposed to how many must exit).

It's natural to print the time limit onto the exits, then it's in the same place as the warning.

I'm open to displaying the time limit somewhere else, but probably not in the gameplay area. It's another thing that should always be visible.

Ditch the minimap

When this was last proposed, there was a 6:1 majority in favour of keeping the minimap. I doubt that preferences will have changed much in the meantime, so the minimap will stay for now. It can perhaps be revisited in the absence of a more suitable solution.

Create a second infobar at the top of the screen.

This could work. Or, perhaps, add another one to the panel area. Since the panel is now always hi-res, it may even be possible to make the text and icons slightly smaller (whilst maintaining - or even increasing - resolution) so that more can fit on.


Of the suggestions so far, a hatch number seems the most appropriate solution; we're used to seeing it anyway (in levels with hatch lemming caps), and it could easily be made optional if people would prefer a less-cluttered UI in favour of knowing how many lemmings are yet to spawn.

Here's another suggestion, whilst we're at the ideas phase:

Instead of displaying "0" and counting up as lemmings exit, we could display (e.g.) "80" in red, and count down. When the count reaches "0", the count then changes to green and switches to "80" (showing that the save requirement has been met), and counts up if any further lemmings exit, thus showing the grand total number of lemmings exited.

This might appear confusing at first, but I imagine that players would catch on quite quickly. SuperLemmix users (if there are any! ) are already used to seeing the save requirement in red whilst it hasn't been met, so it would maintain the current status quo to some extent whilst also keeping the display clutter-free.

Thoughts?

[Simon]

I agree that it's better to have the save count and the time limit always visible.

Instead of displaying "0" and counting up as lemmings exit, we could display (e.g.) "80" in red, and count down.

Don't rely on color alone. It's hard to guess what the colors mean. Red can mean stop or bad or loss or ..., but you want to convey "not yet".

Use icons. You can change or add icons when you win the level. Icons and color together is strong.

What exactly was confusing about the minus sign? Or was the flagpole confusing?

-- Simon

[WillLem]

Instead of displaying "0" and counting up as lemmings exit, we could display (e.g.) "80" in red, and count down.

Don't rely on color alone.

The idea isn't auggesting only to rely on colour. There are also numbers and an icon, both of which are clear enough.

The part of the idea I'd like to get feedback on is whether counting down first, then up once the SR has been met, is a good enough way to keep all the information on screen at all times without adding any extra characters.

So far, I think it is. It might at least be worth a try. The effectiveness of these sorts of ideas usually becomes apparent once people are actually using it.

Use icons. You can change or add icons when you win the level.

Good idea, worth considering. We still need to know how to display the numbers though.

What exactly was confusing about the minus sign?

e.g. The SR is 80. I've saved 89 lemmings. The display reads 9.

That doesn't make as much sense as the display reading 89, whether or not we know what the SR is.

[Proxima]

e.g. The SR is 80. I've saved 89 lemmings. The display reads 9.

That doesn't make as much sense as the display reading 89, whether or not we know what the SR is.

How about instead +9 to mean "9 above SR" and -9 to mean "9 below SR"?

[WillLem]

How about instead +9 to mean "9 above SR" and -9 to mean "9 below SR"?

It's the same sort of problem. It doesn't make as much sense as simply printing "89", and then changing the colour based on whether or not the SR is met.

"9 over the SR" doesn't mean all that much if the player wants to know the total number saved (say, for Talisman purposes) and there is nothing else showing what the SR is*. And even if there was, the player then has to calculate the total. OK, it's simple addition, but even so it's better UI to just print the total number of lemmings exited.

*In SLX, the SR is displayed in the window caption, but players might be in FullScreen.

[littbarski]

Hello,

I am a beginner after many years so I don't know anything about Neolemmix or Superlemmix in terms of developing and gameplay. But as I just saw this topic here, I think this is indeed something that is important, especially to beginners, but also in general for usability.

When I think of Lemmings and the counting, I would directly say that I would need
- how many are still in stock?
- how many are currently active?
- how many are already in the exit?

For me it would not make sense to show always the total number of Lemmings as a number that appears to be a counter (when you start a level you see how many Lemmings will appear). But what would be nice, and this answers perhaps your questions, is that you make the level goal appear in a part/part number.

So the row could be like:
--- Number still in stock --- Number currently active --- Number in exit / Number necessary in exit ---

Like (Example we need 10 in Exit):
--- 25 --- 5 --- 5 / 10 ---

Of course if many players like also the total number this could be just added at the left in addition:
---35 --- 25 --- 5 --- 5 / 10 ---

(so no special colors would be necessary)

[WillLem]

For me it would not make sense to show always the total number of Lemmings as a number that appears to be a counter

Ah, it seems there's been a misunderstanding here. Whenever I mentioned "total" in my previous post/suggestion, I meant the total number of lemmings that have exited, not the total number of lemmings available in the level from the start (which, of course, I agree wouldn't make sense to display as a counter since it doesn't change). I've now edited my posts to clarify that.

As regards to printing X/Y where X is the total number of lemmings that have exited and Y is the save requirement (SR), I'm trying to avoid that because it means adding additional characters on the panel, which is already at maximum capacity in terms of what can be printed to it. Consequently, in order for /Y to be added, something else would have to go. I'd strongly rather avoid this if possible.

The UI goals are these:

• Provide an indication of the SR, either as a fixed value (acceptable) or a changing value approaching the SR (better).
  
• Display the total number of lemmings saved (ideally at all times, but certainly after the SR is met)
• Keep the remaining panel display as it is (so, we keep hatch lems, active lems, and other panel items where they are currently)
• Don't add more UI if at all possible

So, I'd like some feedback on the following suggestion, in which I've attempted to meet all of the above goals:

As an example, we have a level with a SR of 80, and 100 possible lemmings to be saved.

Current SLX panel behaviour: The exit count starts at 0 and counts up as lemmings exit (0, 1, 2, 3, 4, etc...). The number is printed in red until the SR has been met, after which it is printed in green for the SR itself, and any subsequent exiters (80, 81, 82, 83, 84, etc...).

This is problematic because it doesn't indicate how far away the player is from the level's SR. And, although SuperLemmix prints the SR on the caption, not everybody will use the program in Windowed mode. And, even if they do, we want to avoid the player having to make calculations if possible.

So, we still need a way to indicate the SR.

NeoLemmix's solution to this problem is to print the exit count as a negative number. In our example here, it would display as "-80", and would count up as lemmings exit (-80, -79, -78, -77, -76, etc).

This is also problematic because, once the SR has met, it then counts over starting at 0 (0, 1, 2, 3, 4, etc...). So, it's not possible to see at a glance the total number of saved lemmings, which we should agree is an important number to display (reasons: talismans, challenges, and just because it's a useful thing to know in general).

Proposed solution:

Instead of displaying "0" and counting up as lemmings exit, we instead display "80" in red, and count down as lemmings exit (80, 79, 78, 77, 76, etc...).

When the count reaches "0", the count then changes to green and switches immediately to "80" (showing that the SR has been met), and then proceeds to count up if any further lemmings exit, thus showing the grand total of lemmings that have exited (80, 81, 82, 83, 84, etc...).

I accept some potential for confusion at first, but I believe players would catch on. I also believe this suggestion is the only one so far which fulfils all of the above listed UI goals, and so it's the idea I'm particularly interested in at present.

The only problem I can see with it is that it doesn't show the total number of lemmings saved before the SR has been met, but we sacrifice this to instead show how many more lemmings need to be saved to meet the SR. Even so, it could be argued that until the SR has been met, the latter of these is more important anyway.


Just to keep track of where I'm at with this, here's how I'd list the current suggestions so far, in order of preference:

1) The suggestion in this post (count down from SR in red until SR is met, then count up from SR in green for any subsequent exiters)
2) Current SLX behaviour, but also display SR when mouse cursor is over the exit count (either in-place or as a panel hint)
3) Current SLX behaviour (count up in red until SR is met, then count up in green for any subsequent exiters)
4) Current NL behaviour (display SR as a negative number which counts up to 0 when SR is met, then counts up from 0 for any subsequent exiters)
5) Display X/Y in the panel, where X is the total number saved and Y is the SR - for this, it will be necessary to displace the hatch number display (i.e. yet-to-spawn lems) and print it to the hatches instead, which is why this is so far down the list
6) Any idea that doesn't involve showing the total number of lems exited in addition to everything else mentioned

[Simon]

1) The suggestion in this post (count down from SR in red until SR is met, then count up from SR in green for any subsequent exiters)

This relies on color alone.

Consider the following two outputs:
(exit-icon) (number 57 in red)
(exit-icon) (number 57 in green)

The first means that you must save 57 more to reach the save requirement. The second means that you've already won, and that you've saved 57. Completely different meanings, yet you disambiguate only by color.

The only problem I can see with it is that it doesn't show the total number of lemmings saved before the SR has been met, but we sacrifice this to instead show how many more lemmings need to be saved to meet the SR. Even so, it could be argued that until the SR has been met, the latter of these is more important anyway.

Yes, your fundamental idea behind this is reasonable. Let's iron out the little complaints in your 1).

On winning, change the exit icon to a green checkmark, to go with the green text. (Or an exit icon with a big fat checkmark drawn over it.)

Reintroduce the minus sign in front of the 57. You haven't told me anything unclear about the minus sign yet. Your criticism about NL's display was that NL's positive count after winning was unclear/unhelpful, fine, you've addressed that; it's independent from the minus sign.

I'm still not convinced that red is the right color for "not yet". Use green after winning, sure, but before winning, find something else than red. You use yellow in the time limit. The time limit is also a restriction, but no absolute block from future winning. Consider yellow for the unmet save requirement.

Thus, on saving the 80th lemming, you'll jump between:
(exit icon) (yellow number −1)
(checkmark) (green number 80)

Now it sounds reasonable enough to try it. (And you've reserved the color red for the future, e.g., for absolute stuckage.)

-- Simon

[WillLem]

On winning, change the exit icon to ... an exit icon with a big fat checkmark drawn over it.

OK, this can be done 

Reintroduce the minus sign in front of the 57. You haven't told me anything unclear about the minus sign yet.

Two reasons why I don't want to re-introduce the minus sign:

1) It costs 1 panel digit; we're trying to conserve panel digits.
2) It looks untidy.

I'm still not convinced that red is the right color for "not yet" ... Consider yellow for the unmet save requirement.

How about a traffic light system? Red for 0, Yellow for 1 to (SR -1), Green for SR+

[littbarski]

hello again,

I did not know about the size / space restrictions in this row, so I suggested the number/number display.
But I still think it is nice to see directly: how many lems have I saved, how many do I need (still)?
Only thing that might work is:
- number of lems in exit from the beginning in YELLOW
- number of lems in exit after success (enough lems in exit) in GREEN
I would not work with red actually at all as red is always a warning color that you have made something wrong which is not the case here.

I also like the idea to change the exit icon (not the real exit in the level) to a green checkmark after success.
Although it not necessesary when you have the green number.

By the way when I look in Youtube and in my (latest) Superlemmix I don't find the numbers of both of the lemmings still to appear and those already active on the screen. Should this be added both? (would be good of course).

Sorry for the beginner's ideas and questions, of course I am not an expert and can't discuss much here, just wanted to answer once more.

[WillLem]

number of lems in exit from the beginning in YELLOW
...
I would not work with red actually at all as red is always a warning color that you have made something wrong which is not the case here.

I still think red for 0 (and negative numbers, in the case of a Zombie or a Rival entering the exit) is fine, so the first version of this feature will have numbers <=0 in red. Yellow can be used for 1 - (SR-1). This is a good compromise.

Potential problem: the display already uses Yellow in the "Active Lemmings" part of the display for when Neutrals are present:



Yellow for the exit number could, then, potentially be confusing. This is probably why colour alone isn't enough for making distinctions. EDIT: This has now been solved; we'll use Teal instead of Yellow for when Normals and Neutrals are present, and Blue for when only Neutrals are present

By the way when I look in Youtube and in my (latest) Superlemmix I don't find the numbers of both of the lemmings still to appear and those already active on the screen. Should this be added both? (would be good of course).

Left to right - The "hatch" number is the number of lemmings yet to spawn, the "lemming" number is the total number of lemmings active in the level, including zombies, neutrals, pre-placed, spawned, and yet-to-spawn; this will only change if lemmings are removed from the level (either by exiting or dying), the "exit" number is the number of lemmings that have exited:



You seem to be proposing that we should also display the number of active lemmings (i.e. spawned, possibly not including zombies). Is that correct?

[WillLem]

Quick update:

The Lemming count display is now Teal (rather than Yellow) when Neutrals are present in the level, then changes to Blue when there are only Neutrals present. Since Blue + Green = Teal, this makes more sense visually anyway.

(Implemented in Commit ac1e67d).

[WillLem]

Meanwhile, not about displaying a check mark over the exit icon. It looks a bit tacked on:



Maybe the exit icon could display greyscale until the level is completed. This is slightly better than using only colour, because the exit icon will also appear to "light up" due to the difference in brightness and contrast: