Polls for possible adaptations to the level design contests.

[IchoTolot]

The topic is for polls for adaptations to the level design contests.

For the discussions themselves please stick to the discussion topics.

So far we had the following two:

1.) https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=6807.0
2.) https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=6622.0

I won't change major things like the whole entry system before I know that at least a significant portion of people is behind certain ideas.

The first poll I want to make is about people feel if the basic entry structure should be changed.

Before touching the voting system let's first see how people fell about the rule/entry system, as it may effect the degree in which the voting should be updated.

1st poll: How many entries/rules should level design contests have?

- (As before) Multiple rules with possible multiple entries per author. (6 votes)
- Only one rule with only one entry per author. (2 votes)

Note: Only one rule with only one entry per author will not automatically lead to much more frequent contests as even then sufficient time to (mainly) design, play and (to a lesser extend) vote needs to be accounted for.

2nd poll: With muliple rules/entries: How shall the winner be determined?

- The best levels of each rule survive and we determine the winners in a mixed round. (as before) (1 vote)
- Only 1 level survives each rule and those 3 levels determine the top 3 in one final round. (Finding the top 1 for each rule may require 1 tiebreaker round) (7 votes)

3rd poll: Shall the "choose the next contest's rules" prize be split up between the top 3 levels?

- Yes (8 votes)
- No (0 votes)

If an author has multiple levels in the top 3 they then get to choose as many rules as they have levels in the final round.

Result - new format of the contest:

Structure:

- 3 different rules to design levels for.
- Each person can design 1 level for each of the 3 rules.
- We will list the current rule/bucket size in the contest topic during the submission phase.
- A level that statisfies multiple rules can only be submittet to one. The author can choose which one though.
- Levels for different rules need to be completely different levels and not just minor modifications of each other (if not the current ruleset strictly requires this).

Voting:

- Voting takes place for all 3 rules at the same time.
- Only the level with the most votes in each rule moves on. Each person only gets 1 vote for each rule.
- Dertermining the top level in a rule might result in a tiebreaker. (Edge case: A tiebreaker between tied levels results in another tie where nobody is eliminated -> All move on.)
- The top 3 then consists of the top level of reach rule. The placement is then determined in a single voting round. Each person only gets 1 vote. A tie here simply results in a tied 1st or 2nd place.

Prize:

- The "choosing the rules for the next contest" prize will be the only one you can get.
- The authors of the top three levels will each get to choose a rule. If an author got multiple levels in the top three they get to choose multiple rules accordingly.
- If people choose (near) identical rules we will sort things out through pm communication so that the rules are different.

[namida]

Note: Only one rule with only one entry per author will not automatically lead to much more frequent contests as even then sufficient time to (mainly) design, play and (to a lesser extend) vote needs to be accounted for.

My suggestion in this regard was basically to get rid of the mixed rounds. So, still running three rules at once (just like we currently do), but we just find a winner from each individual rule, instead of having any mixed rounds. As such, it shouldn't be much different to the status quo in terms of time needed.

I suspect the response to this poll is going to be very different depending on whether an approach like this, vs basically just "keep the same frequency but one entry and one rule per contest", is the proposal.

[IchoTolot]

Note: Only one rule with only one entry per author will not automatically lead to much more frequent contests as even then sufficient time to (mainly) design, play and (to a lesser extend) vote needs to be accounted for.

My suggestion in this regard was basically to get rid of the mixed rounds. So, still running three rules at once (just like we currently do), but we just find a winner from each individual rule, instead of having any mixed rounds. As such, it shouldn't be much different to the status quo in terms of time needed.

I suspect the response to this poll is going to be very different depending on whether an approach like this, vs basically just "keep the same frequency but one entry and one rule per contest", is the proposal.

Then I will adress this in a separate poll.

So first if we should keep the multiple rule structure at all and then if we should treat them as in your suggestion.

[namida]

Then my vote is - keep multiple rules (but for the next poll: treat them as three contests running in parallel, with seperate winners, no mixed round).

[WillLem]

+1 for no mixed rounds and 1 winner from each rule (assuming 3 rules is kept - from the current poll results, it's most likely).

The final round can then simply pit the 3 winning levels against each other to determine 1st, 2nd and 3rd place.

[IchoTolot]

Ok, 2nd poll: With muliple rules/entries: How shall the winner be determined?

- The best levels of each rule survive and we determine the winners in a mixed round. (as before)
- Only 1 level survives each rule and those 3 levels determine the top 3 in one final round. (Finding the top 1 for each rule may require 1 tiebreaker round so that only 1 level moves on and the final round is only 1 vote as a result)

In any case: I will host the voting for all 3 rules simultaniously in 3 dedicated rule voting topics to save time!

As we are currently on it anyway, I will make an extra poll at the end if the rule prize shall be split up between the top 3.

[Dullstar]

If the rule prize is split between the top 3 it's worth noting, since 1-survivor-per-rule would result in exactly 3 finalists, that it would be possible to announce rules for the next contest during the vote(s) to determine the order of the top 3.

[IchoTolot]

Alright, I've put up a 3rd poll regarding the prize split up between the top 3 levels.
If an author has multiple levels in the top 3 they then get to choose as many rules as they have levels in the final round.

So far this would be the new format of the contests:

Structure:

- 3 different rules to design levels for.
- Each person can design 1 level for each of the 3 rules.

Voting:

- Voting takes place for all 3 rules at the same time.
- Only the level with the most votes in each rule moves on. Each person only gets 1 vote for each rule.
- Dertermining the top level in a rule might result in a tiebreaker. (Edge case: A tiebreaker between tied levels results in another tie where nobody is eliminated -> All move on.)
- The top 3 then consists of the top level of reach rule. The placement is then determined in a single voting round. Each person only gets 1 vote. A tie here simply results in a tied 1st or 2nd place.


Are there any more ideas that I should put up to a poll?
Did I make any big mistakes here?

Please feel free to comment. 

[kaywhyn]

Just dropping off a quick post to say thank you to all who have dropped off suggestions/feedback for Icho and me in order to potentially make improvements to the contest system  I will be reading over the discussion topics Icho linked to in the OP over the next few days and will drop off my thoughts once I do so just to make sure that I too am understanding everything correctly  Thanks again all!     

[Simon]

Ditch the money prize (USD 5).

What happens when two different people choose practically identical rules? Will you run two buckets with identical rules? What happens if an author submits only one level (instead of two), does he have to guess beforehand which bucket has bigger chances to win? Or will you merge the two buckets and authors get to submit two levels? Will you declare one winner or two from the merged bucket?

Or do you ask one of the rule choosers to choose a different rule? Which chooser do you ask? (Each previous contest produces only equal winners, one per rule, that you never rank against each other.)

-- Simon

[IchoTolot]

Ditch the money prize (USD 5).

Ditching the money prize and only offering the rule prize I fully agree with. It suits the theme better!

Thanks for bringing up the edge cases! 

What happens when two different people choose practically identical rules? Will you run two buckets with identical rules?

I will then contact both people and offer solutions via pm. It could be that person choose to change the rule voluntarily for example, or they both together can create another rule both agree with.
There won't be two buckets with identical rules though.

in general, I think this can be solved through pm discussion.

What happens if an author submits only one level (instead of two), does he have to guess beforehand which bucket has bigger chances to win? Or will you merge the two buckets and authors get to submit two levels? Will you declare one winner or two from the merged bucket?

Yes, this is the thing I am most unsure about.

Most of the time the rules have roughly the same number of entries and when differences occured the adjusted survival rate kicked in.
For small rule/bucket differences I would say the 1 survvivor rule is fine, but we should talk about the special case of large differences in bucket/rule size.

Some options I thought of:

* List the current rule/bucket size in the contest topic during the submission phase. -> Promotes smaller rules/buckets and can lead to equalization. I highly tend to include this.
* Merge the voting for 2 rules and have 2 survivors in that bucket (ensured by a tiebreaker if needed). - This could still be unequal.
* Keep the system and have that inequality - This would make harder rules more alluring and somewhat reward people tackling the more obscure rules, but it is unequal!

I will have aother thought about it, but in the meantime I am happy to hear more suggestions! 

[namida]

Yes, this is the thing I am most unsure about.

Most of the time the rules have roughly the same number of entries and when differences occured the adjusted survival rate kicked in.
For small rule/bucket differences I would say the 1 survvivor rule is fine, but we should talk about the special case of large differences in bucket/rule size.

I thought that Simon was following on from the "if you run two identical rules at the same time" starting point here. IE: If the same rule exists twice, but a level creator only wants to enter once, how is that handled?

[IchoTolot]

Yes, this is the thing I am most unsure about.

Most of the time the rules have roughly the same number of entries and when differences occured the adjusted survival rate kicked in.
For small rule/bucket differences I would say the 1 survvivor rule is fine, but we should talk about the special case of large differences in bucket/rule size.

I thought that Simon was following on from the "if you run two identical rules at the same time" starting point here. IE: If the same rule exists twice, but a level creator only wants to enter once, how is that handled?

Ok, if that is the case I would simply say "There won't be two identical rules".

[Simon]

via pm. It could be that person choose to change the rule voluntarily for example, or they both together can create another rule both agree with.
There won't be two buckets with identical rules though.

Right, on practically identical rules, you can PM both rule choosers. Or PM one of them at random.

Simon was following on from the "if you run two identical rules at the same time" starting point here.

Right, this is solved because Icho will prevent two practically identical rules.

This brings

Yes, this is the thing I am most unsure about.

There is indeed a worry here even with all-different rules, and I haven't thought about it before now: An author creates a level that satisfies two different rules. This has been less important in previous contests because the buckets merged eventually into a single bucket for the semifinals.

Now, buckets for different rules won't merge. Should the author commit the two-rule-satisfying level to only one rule? Can the author submit the level to both rules? If we want to forbid this: Can the author submit variants of the level that differ only minimally? How big a difference is enough?

My first hunch is to allow the same level to enter both rules and possibly win both. It's boring but clear, it leaves no room for arguments.

-- Simon

[Proxima]

My first hunch is to allow the same level to enter both rules and possibly win both. It's boring but clear, it leaves no room for arguments.

Totally agree with this.