Level Design Contest #30 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)

[ericderkovits]

@Icho

Both solutions are good. bronze one is exactly to mine. The other one is different than mine but is still good.

[Crane]

I might have gotten the versions confused for The Incredible Doom Machine, since I thought V7 was the last one.  Nevertheless, with the current version, this backroute is still possible:

[Crane]

Bronze talisman solution for V5 of March of the Neutrals (my gold talisman solution, which also gets the silver talisman, still works).

[kaywhyn]

Finally got around to fixing backroutes to my R2 thanks to Crane, as well as a backroute to my R3 thanks to Icho. Thanks everyone for your patience. Admittedly, I haven't been in much of a fixing mood since around the time of my short vacation with my parents last month.

I have updated the contest collection pack to include V8 of my R2 and V7 of my R3!

@Crane

R2 - Finally uploaded V8 of my R2 to fix your backroutes. The first few were a really great find, making very good use of one end of the laser tunnel in order to make it possible to cheese the starting area with it. Luckily, it was simply an easy fix of shifting the steel near the exit. I've tried every possible configuration at the start and I don't think it's possible to cheese the starting area the way you did with the laser anymore, but feel free to prove me wrong if you like! In addition, I've also removed the steel from the top right and reduced the number of fencer pickups to 3. This will hopefully force the use of the skill in certain spots now, but let's see!

@Icho

R1 - Intended! One of the tricks was inspired a bit by Armani's Color Coded from the previous LDC, as well as a late Psycho level from namida's LPI. Also the release was inspired by one of your United levels!

Spoiler

Also my very first builder/miner combo level!

R2 - Intended! However, Crane has backrouted the level several times, which I hope has been fixed with V8. So, sorry to break your solution, as well as Armani's, but you both just need a replay tweak in a few spots to get a working replay again

R3 - Nice find! Another one that's easily fixed, but for V7 I decided to go with adding another wooden plank instead of Crane's idea of adding more steel. Trust me, you'll love the intended solution when you find it and therefore I think you'll like my level for your ruleset!

Also added some more terrain in the bottom right to fix another cheesy backroute variant near the exit area.

[IchoTolot]

My R2 replay still works.

For R3 my backroute only needed a slight adjustment though.

[kaywhyn]

@Icho

R2 - Ah, not sure why I thought I broke your replay there from fixing Crane's backroutes. Somehow I thought having less skills caused that. I just checked it again and indeed your replay still works. As mentioned before, your solution is intended. Me and my fuzzy memory

R3 - Ah, not sure how I missed that! For V8, created a gap

[IchoTolot]

Maybe this is at least a bit closer.

[kaywhyn]

@Icho

R3 - Nah, not that much closer For V9, I simply shifted the entrance over.

[IchoTolot]

Still seems to be a backroute.

[kaywhyn]

Still seems to be a backroute.

R3 - Correct. Ugh, another good use of that digger elsewhere For V10, created another hole. Somehow I still have a feeling you'll find another way around the intended route, but well, let's see!

[Crane]

New backroute for you kaywhyn!  Enjoy!

Possible Fix

Extend the steel part in the upper left corner so you can't dig down and drop onto a Builder's bridge there, or will this give too much away?

Alternative

Given I save exactly 1 Climber and it uses some advanced tricks and careful placement... maybe a talisman solution?!

[kaywhyn]

New backroute for you kaywhyn!  Enjoy!

Possible Fix

Extend the steel part in the upper left corner so you can't dig down and drop onto a Builder's bridge there, or will this give too much away?

Alternative

Given I save exactly 1 Climber and it uses some advanced tricks and careful placement... maybe a talisman solution?!

Nice find for my R3! For V11, added steel. I appreciate your help in suggesting some fixes, but I think I will open them up after I get word that only the intended route is the only way It's not me being stubborn to accept help, but rather I'm one who generally prefers to do things solo, especially if it's a contest level. If it wasn't, then sure, fire away! That being said, I'm not opposed to future collabs on levels if, say, a tag team contest or some collab contest happens again!

[Crane]

That's a fair point.  No worries.

[Crane]

This is not a solve, but a solution that barely fails!  Probably can't be solved this way, but who knows!

[kaywhyn]

All rightie, I have followed suit and solved all of the contest levels. My replays are attached. These replays were done in v0.10.24 of Lix and v12.12.5 NL, though I think these would all still work in v0.10.25 of Lix and the NL 12.13-3 RC build, respectively.

I seem to have found some backroutes here In particular, I'm guessing geoo's R2, most definitely Armani's R2 and R3, and possibly Crane's R3, though that one might be an acceptable alternative despite the saved skill. Armani's R3 took me the longest, only for me to ultimately find a backroute

Lix Entries Feedback

geoo's Cycle Decomposition R2V1

Wow, nice level for my ruleset, but sadly I found an extremely easy way to contain the crowd to prepare the route so that it doesn't rely too much on timing Still, deceptively difficult despite being a bashers and bomber only level!

geoo's Misaligned R3V1

Once again, I continue to be amazed at what one can do in Lix. Seems that this is only possible due to the wrap feature, though a level like this should theoretically also be possible to make in NL when the engine at one point had the wrap gimmick. Solution still isn't too obvious or trivial in any way despite just being a miner and blockers only level.

NL Contest Entries Feedback

R1's:

Armani's Guts Over Fear R1V1

Wow, this was deceivingly tough but a good one, just like Icho said. I thought I could get it solved by being able to bash to the right and also through the staircase as well, allowing an alternative solution but seems the basher will always top before the staircase. The other idea I had for a while was building at the very bottom, but then I thought wait, the climber will just get into trouble when he gets to the far left and fall down and splat. Not sure why it took me a while to realize that you can use a blocker to have him go back the other way so that he can bash through to allow the others to use the right exit Nice, this trick is always great fun for me to see in action! Definitely reminds me of Festive 6 from your Halloween Lemmings 2023 pack. This took a few tries to get right, as then the hardest part was making sure only two went through to the bottom while everyone else gets contained at the bottom right.

My only other critique here is that the timing is really tight with bashing the white spike to release the blocker and the builder finishing just barely in the nick of time before he slips by the builder. Was wondering if the spike can therefore be made a bit thicker Other than that, great job with the level.

Crane's High Striker R1V3

Nice level, though this still took me some time to figure out how to get two worker Lemmings in order to do the mining and fencing simultaneously so that you don't run out of time. Turns out I kept assigning skills to the wrong Lermmings, and I eventually noticed the 94RR and thought, wait, isn't this the RR which allows a climber to not turn around in a basher tunnel? Ah, there's that throwback to Cunning 3 from Lemmings Cranium, though this level is more similar to Chaos 24 in terms of the trick being applied in a more complicated level but a lot easier to apply since you don't have that many options at all in this level. Also nice use of a track from PimoLems!

eric's Mosaic Lemmings R1V2

Pretty much had the level figured out somewhat fairly quick, though the hardest part here was seeing to delay the swimmer skill assignment as long as possible in order to get two Lemmings past the water squirting trap in order to use the block in front of the laser so he can release both the left-most neutral groups. Before I saw this, I kept thinking about other things, such as how to get a Lemming into place to bomb the other two neutral groups out with the shimmiers and other skills provided. I thought maybe someone needed to turn around at the very top at the start and jump to avoid the trap, but turns out you'll end up some skills short.

My main critique here is why the heck is a lot of the normal entrance off the top of the level Personally, this looks sloppy to me, though it might just be me having an issue with things appearing outside the visible portions of the level. Of course, the easiest thing to do here is to simply increase the height of the level or move the entrance down until all of it is visible and not hidden from sight. Otherwise, quite a decent level with one of Dexter's new tilesets

JRT's One Thing at a Time II R1V1

One of the final two levels I solved, just like some of the others have said, this is way too fiddly and annoying to execute, with the entire level being complete guesswork x12, as you cannot have two Lemmings land on the tip of the spike at the bottom simultaneously. Gave up on this in frustration before I decided to buckle down and get it solved for real. Eventually in the end, I resorted to replay edit mode and still had to spend a good 10 minutes or so before I finally found something that worked. However, seems this isn't the only way to get the level solved, as you have stated there's many solutions that also get the job done. Well, I haven't checked any of his replays, but I'm convinced of the truth due to the many solutions that Crane has found to it. I myself am not going to bother going back to see if I can find other multiple solutions, though. The level's already annoying enough due to being very precise on the diggers and not knowing if the solution is correct until you do the building section at the bottom.

R2's:

Armani's Very Particular Set of Skills R2V1

Sorry, this should be a backroute as I don't even use the left part of the level at the bottom. I used a very brute force way to sneak past the fire trap near the OWW and made sure that the basher didn't tank the OWAs to turn around. I checked your video of the intended solution and I had a suspicion that the bottom left is used so that the timing all works out. Still a deceivingly difficult level even if I figured out some things pretty quickly! Most definitely getting the timing right is the hardest in the level.

eric's March of the Neutrals R2V5

Another fairly decent level with another one of Dexter's new tilesets. I've attached three solutions, first just solving it and then for the talismans. Solving the level without using the basher took a while, but I eventually found a way to do so by tanking steel to allow the neutrals to get ahead of the Lemming.

I understand that this is supposed to be a long march the neutrals have to do in the level, but there is way too much walking with the player not needing to do anything at all. I know Nepster certainly would criticize a level like this for that. Most importantly, why the heck do you have two talismans where the silver one is also in the gold one plus the requirement of no more than one bomber allowed? The silver one can simply be removed. If the concern is due to people might want to read the talisman before solving the level, then keep in mind some solve the level first and might not even bother with them or later go back and get them, like was the case with me.

For the record, I criticized Silken for doing the exact same thing with one of their levels with having a redundant talisman, and they ended up removing one of them

JRT's Don't Bash It Before You Dig It R2V4

Wow, trickier than I thought it was. Thought I could cheese the level by not needing to take the long way around, but I couldn't get it to work. Guess you really do need to take the hint in the level title here in order to get up to the exit. Anyway, I'm not sure if my solution is intended.

R3's:

Armani's Cheddar-Crusted Hash Browns R3V2

Sorry, this is most definitely a backroute! This was pretty much the final level I got solved. Deceivingly difficult, and another approach I tried comes really close but unfortunately the climber worker goes out the wrong way. I might have an idea as to what's intended, but I will try again after an update

Crane's Tomb Raiders R3V5

This one didn't look so bad until I saw to my horror that the end part is too thick to step up through the ceiling even with the basher/blocker staircase. So, this meant that I would need to save both bashers for the end then. So, the hardest part was how to do the start without using a basher, as tempting as it is. Pretty fiddly at the start but it can be done with some well-placed bombers and a digger. I do have a digger leftover, so I don't know if this is a backroute or an acceptable alternative where I might had been more efficient.

eric's Neither here nor there R3V3

Wasn't exactly one of my favorites due to needing to fiddle around with the miner placements so that they both can cross without cancelling each other, as well as the huge amount of building needed to be done, but this one at least isn't overkill like JRT's R3. Again, why the heck do you have entrances at the top partially off the top of the screen? Also, why is the exit in midair??? Notice there's a 1 pixel gap between it and the ground

JRT's The Epic of Gilgamesh R3V1

Yea, I can definitely see why Icho refused to play this one all the way. This one wasn't exactly fun for me to do due to so much building needed to be done. You might as well just give the player 99 or an infinite amount of builders so that it's not a worry that one would run out of builders at all. Even then, that still probably wouldn't get Icho to play the level entirely. It's really obvious what you need to do, but the fact you need to place the builders pretty precisely so that you can get one long digger in a few places while taking care of the splat height was pretty annoying. I haven't said this to you at any point yet, but remember that in NL that "just because you can doesn't mean you should." There are some types of levels the NL community generally dislike, such as builder heavy levels.

This is not a solve, but a solution that barely fails!  Probably can't be solved this way, but who knows!

Shouldn't be possible to, as I also failed when I tried to test that route in your replay.