Level Design Contest #29 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)

[zanzindorf]

I replayed kaywhyn's revisions. I'm still stuck on R1, but here's R2 and R3.

Spoiler

R2 V2: I'm not sure if this has been found yet, because I'm purposely avoiding spoilers, but, I think I broke the level again. I got tunnel vision thinking I could only dig the barrier in front of the exit, when I can just bomb it.

R3 V3: I still have many skills left over, so I don't think I've found the real solution yet.

[kaywhyn]

@zanzindorf

Many thanks for resolving the most recent versions of my R2 and R3!

R1 This surprises me a bit, but as mentioned before I'm my own worst critic when it comes to judging the difficulty of my own levels! Actually, I think this is pretty much true for every designer. I'll refrain from giving hints for now, as I generally only give them if the player asks for them. I know you'll get V3 solved, though

R2 - Another really bad backroute that I didn't catch For V4, the only change here was shifting the pillar in the water down a pixel, but apparently that change is enough! Let's see how it holds up now, though I still very much have my doubts.

R3 - Oh wow, nice find. For V3, I removed the steel blocks and replaced them with some circle terrain.


I have resolves for eric's R1 and Armani's R2.

@eric

Ok, if this is intended then I must say this level really made me rage because of how it needs so much precision in order to avoid zombie infection. It probably isn't though and I simply self-inflicted all that precision and made it far more complicated than it needs to be. I literally exhausted every possibility here, with nothing working except for this solution I finally found after a few hours. Again, if intended, then I hate to say it but I'm not a fan of all that fiddliness and timing. Since I'm not certain about whether it's intended, I've refrained from watching zanzindorf's broken replay for now just in case I need to resolve this one again.

@Armani

R2 looks good now

Spoiler

I admit that the digging and stoning and then another stoner in the pit to release the crowd is a bit new to me, but I guess it's not too difficult to figure out, especially as the stoner is the only way to contain the top entrances and so it shouldn't be difficult to discover this. The digger does need to be very precise, but that's ok, as at least the second stoner doesn't need to be very precise due to how it has some width to cover some area.

[kaywhyn]

Resolved eric's R1 V6. This one spares a few skills but it should still be intended/acceptable nevertheless, it's simply a really efficient way to do so to allow one to save skills.

Spoiler

This one took a while but the struggles were simply due to not seeing the use of the second jumper correctly. Kept thinking it was used for the swimmer to get onto the platform to get the walker pickup.

My point still stands about the level needlessly being dragged out with no input needed from the player for a while since nothing can be done while they do a very long shimmier/swimming/walking. There's definitely far more creative uses of those skills. Again, I love the shimmier skill a lot myself, but really long sections of it that don't really have a purpose other than to drag things out isn't one of my favorite uses of it. I do understand it's to all make the timing work out here, but I would love to see and play levels with better and more creative shimmier uses in the future!

Note: the Intended solution isn't fiddly. Remember I'm still using Zanzindorf's solution, it's just he needs to replay and make small adjustments.

Ok, but try discussing solutions here instead. It is the discussion topic after all Yes, I'm well aware that zanzindorf's is the new intended solution, but I didn't watch it before resolving this version, therefore I had no way of knowing if the solution is supposed to be messy and fiddly. Indeed, now that I have solved it it's not, but there's still some difficult timing needed, just not to the extreme extent I made a mess out of in V5

[ericderkovits]

added a Bronze Talisman

@Kaywhyn

Ok, this solution is acceptable. good job

Spoiler

Close enough to Intended Solution. Just more efficient than Zanzindorf's. He just used all the skills.
The disarmer zombie in the intended solution is supposed to disarm every trap (except the leftmost one) which you now did. Also now the Slider lemming returns back to the top hatch area by jumping off small wall (after using laserer to release the disarmer zombie) to make another round which was missing in your previous solutions.

[geoo]

Solved both of geoo's Lix entries. Replays attached I don't smell any backroutes here!

Spoiler

Dangerous Goods - Not a difficult level, just one I struggled with only because I'm still learning new things about Lix. For example, I didn't realize that was a spring at the bottom and that one can use the steam to get flung upwards. After a while, I tried platforming over the trap at the bottom and that's how I saw what actually happens when I sent a Lix over there. When I saw where she landed my reaction was "oh, that's how you get a Lix onto the middle platform from the right!" Before I even discovered that, I was thinking perhaps the way is to bash and then bomb around the middle so to release the other Lix to get into the other Lix's basher tunnel.

Just out of curiosity, would the solution still work even without a fling bomber? It seems the fling isn't necessary at all. I know that the bomber holes are different for the skills, I just wonder if the solution could work with either skill

Origami Master - Ok, this one was very frustrating on the execution. I initially had trouble conceptualizing how the containment in the middle should work, but after a while I figured it out. Even with this, this took so many tries to get right because I either get one too many killed by the trap or at least 1 Lix kept escaping one of the flinging objects. In the end, I used the jumper on the final Lix in the train since she got killed by the trap.

With this level, I was like wow, geoo sure loves his Merge Sort puzzles The timing had to be right and assigning the correct Lixes the skills is very crucial here!

Both solutions are intended, though you made your life much harder on the second one (as long as you place the second blocker well, execution should have a decent amount of leeway):

Spoiler

Building while the crowd is already in the pit slightly stretches out the crowd, giving you less leeway. If instead you send one lix ahead to jump over the trap and build while the crowd is still trapped behind the blocker, things should work smoothly as long as you have at most 4 layers of lix and place the second blocker precisely (the replay tweaker is super helpful for the latter).
I wonder how I could change the level to make this clearer. Initially I had pre-built the bridge and it was just a 4 skill level, maybe that's better?

But yes, I like these style of levels, and I the pack I'm working on I have a full rank of similar stuff coming up...

Dangerous Goods should also work with the normal bomber, haven't tested though. If certain kinds of backroutes crop up I might change it.

[zanzindorf]

I replayed some more revisions. Brick or Treat and Where No Lem Has Gone Before are solved as indented, I think. Both very nice levels

Spoiler

Jolly Roger V4: It takes more skills to turn around on that pillar that's been lowered, but it's still possible.

Teleporation Race V3: My back route is still possible, but requires another platformer and some extra fiddling with the blockers.

[zanzindorf]

Both solutions are intended, though you made your life much harder on the second one

Spoiler

Hmmm... I'm kinda the same as kaywhyn on Origami Master. I figured I was just lacking information on some Lix mechanic, because I haven't played a lot of Lix. But I really struggled to find the specific placement. Either my Lixs are too spaced apart and get sucked up or too bunched together and walk right past the springs before the exit. I even watched kaywhyn's replay, and I still can't solve it lol. Maybe a prebuilt bridge would help, but I even tried jumping ahead like you suggested to build ahead of the crowd, and it didn't seem to help too much. Would an extra spring at the bottom near the exit break the puzzle? Maybe an extra spring would help it be less unforgiving?

[kaywhyn]

@zanzindorf

Thanks once again for resolving the most recent versions of my R2 and R3 Indeed both are still backroutes I should had known better than to underestimate you lol.

R2 - For V5 the only change was that I replaced the pillar in the water with a different terrain piece. Once again, I'm not confident this change is enough, but well, let's see.

R3 - For V4, I restored the platform near the entrance to V2's version, shifted the steel blocks over, and added a piece of terrain. I think as a result of these changes the solution will probably be a bit more obvious now, but well, sometimes that's the way it is. Even when I thought the solution is more obvious, I still been told otherwise by Armani and Icho! I haven't verified it, but I'm sure Armani's replay should still be fine and if not, then he just needs to make a really minor adjustment.

Spoiler

Hmmm... I'm kinda the same as kaywhyn on Origami Master. I figured I was just lacking information on some Lix mechanic, because I haven't played a lot of Lix. But I really struggled to find the specific placement. Either my Lixs are too spaced apart and get sucked up or too bunched together and walk right past the springs before the exit. I even watched kaywhyn's replay, and I still can't solve it lol. Maybe a prebuilt bridge would help, but I even tried jumping ahead like you suggested to build ahead of the crowd, and it didn't seem to help too much. Would an extra spring at the bottom near the exit break the puzzle? Maybe an extra spring would help it be less unforgiving?

I've replayed geoo's R3 by doing what he described in the first part of the spoiler to make the solution easier than the one I found, but honestly I still find it pretty precise and not that much better. Replay attached. Needless to say, I'm definitely very curious about geoo's replay for it lol. So really, @zanzindorf I don't think you can deviate too much from my first replay with the placements of the skills, otherwise you won't make it as you keep on seeing lol

[zanzindorf]

I replayed Jolly Roger with the new terrain piece. I feel like I'm getting closer to the intended solution, but it's still definitely a back route. I have three variations of essentially the same path, just using different skills.

[kaywhyn]

@zanzindorf

Yea, each of the solutions for R2 have you going through the ship where I don't want them to. Now I remember that's why I didn't want to make the entrance a swimmer hatch, but because of the 10 max skill types limit the intended solution I have in mind wouldn't work For V6, I extended the OWAs. This change should force you to find a different way for the crowd to take

[IchoTolot]

The pack has been updated.

[ericderkovits]

@Zanzindorf

Both your solutions to my R1 and R2 are indeed intended.

Of course I added a Bronze Talisman for Kaywhyn's 2 skill saving but your solution is exactly the solution I wanted
without the Talisman.

[Armani]

@geoo
solved lix entries!
Took me several attemps to save enough lixes on Origami Master.
I love Dangerous Goods. It was an excellent puzzle

@kaywhyn
That's intended

Spoiler

Yep there'll be some levels using this trick(or advanced variations of it) in the future from me. I wanted to introduce the trick so they won't come as a frustrating total surprise.
Btw, the digger doesn't necessarily have to be precised.(i.e. you don't have to dig right next to the steel block.)

[Armani]

And I played through updated NL levels

Brick or Treat
A-MAZE-ING Brick House Evacuation
Lemmings vs the Jolly Roger Pirates
Crossing Confusion Cross

[IchoTolot]

@Armani

Intended solution! Great job!