Level Design Contest #29 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)

[IchoTolot]

All zips only need to be unzipped inside the main folder of your NeoLemmix or Lix Player!

Lix Level Pack: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/a3v1xu2gv9roiz1xuleuq/Contest_29_Lix.zip?rlkey=mkkmei2d0z9p8yq78pe4n878n&dl=1

The Lix levels will then be in the single/Contests/Contest_29 folder!

NeoLemmix Level Pack: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ezp9k9c1qgf6gugna263y/Contest_29_NL.zip?rlkey=gzjuosnkgx87naw1sdlid3nyh&dl=1

Music (NeoLemmix): https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/mc6u3npi5mpqb2sq1q9vj/Contest_29_Music.zip?rlkey=xmh4v2iggu5v9ghziy2c2g6nf&dl=1


Rule 1 Levels

Armani's "Tensegrity" (V2)
Eric Derkovits's "Brick or Treat" (V7)
IchoTolot's "The Amazing Lemming Tightrope Act" (V1)
kaywhyn's "A-MAZE-ING Brick House Evacuation" (V6)


Rule 2 Levels

geoo's "Dangerous Goods" (V2)
Armani's "Got a New Toy" (V2)
Eric Derkovits's "Where No Lem Has Gone Before" (V2)
IchoTolot's "Legacy Of The Waffentraeger" (V1)
kaywhyn's "Lemmings vs the Jolly Roger Pirates" (V19)


Rule 3 Levels

geoo's "Origami Master" (V1)
Armani's "Color Coded" (V1)
Eric Derkovits's "Bee Here For You!" (V1)
IchoTolot's "Crossing Confusion Cross" (V2)
kaywhyn's "Fun Teleportation Race in Space" (V4)


You can check the rules details again here: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=6521.0

Playing Phase will be closed on 31th of January!
Updates will close on 28th of January!

Note: This topic is for posting your comments, replays, etc for the levels. If you wish to post an update to your level, or enter a late submission, please do so in the Updates Topic instead.

Link to update topic

[zanzindorf]

I played through the Rule 1 submissions. Attached is a replay for Tensegrity, Brick or Treat, and A-MAZE-ing Brick House Evacuation. (I'll come back to level 3)

Notes:

Spoiler

Tensegrity: I love the visuals a lot. I always appreciate levels that do interesting things with non-custom styles. Big plus for visual appeal that also servers a function, and nice little details that are just for fun, like the slime pipe, the face, and the little moon hanging from the chain. The solution was fun to find. If I had any constructive feedback, I'd say the overhang the lemmings have to reach when they shimmy is only in reach if they grab the ridges to the end caps. That could feel a little too pixel-perfect to some people I'd imagine, but it's a very minor thing. Very good level overall, definitely my favorite submission visually.

Brick or Treat: I loved this solution. I don't play with zombies often, so me figuring out their mechanics was a nice bonus challenge. They also add to the theming

A-MAZE-ING Brick House Evacuation: I like this one visually as well. It's probably my favorite puzzle out of the three I completed. I've always liked this quirky basher trick, but this level is probably the tidiest set up for that trick I've seen. Nice work Figuring out where to save skills and which path to take was a lot of fun. The swimmers were either a very good red herring, or the solution I found was a back route. I spent a lot of time trying to figure out how to make use of my swimmers lol.

The Amazing Lemming Tightrope Act: I'll need to come back to it :/    Good visually, but I spent all my puzzle solving juice for the day lol.

[kaywhyn]

Solved both of geoo's Lix entries. Replays attached I don't smell any backroutes here!

Spoiler

Dangerous Goods - Not a difficult level, just one I struggled with only because I'm still learning new things about Lix. For example, I didn't realize that was a spring at the bottom and that one can use the steam to get flung upwards. After a while, I tried platforming over the trap at the bottom and that's how I saw what actually happens when I sent a Lix over there. When I saw where she landed my reaction was "oh, that's how you get a Lix onto the middle platform from the right!" Before I even discovered that, I was thinking perhaps the way is to bash and then bomb around the middle so to release the other Lix to get into the other Lix's basher tunnel.

Just out of curiosity, would the solution still work even without a fling bomber? It seems the fling isn't necessary at all. I know that the bomber holes are different for the skills, I just wonder if the solution could work with either skill

Origami Master - Ok, this one was very frustrating on the execution. I initially had trouble conceptualizing how the containment in the middle should work, but after a while I figured it out. Even with this, this took so many tries to get right because I either get one too many killed by the trap or at least 1 Lix kept escaping one of the flinging objects. In the end, I used the jumper on the final Lix in the train since she got killed by the trap.

With this level, I was like wow, geoo sure loves his Merge Sort puzzles The timing had to be right and assigning the correct Lixes the skills is very crucial here!

@zanzindorf

Thanks for playing my R1 That is a backroute, as you might had guessed. For V2, I added a barrel to hopefully prevent that cheesy shortcut you took. I don't know if it'll be enough, but let's see!

Thanks for the compliment and feedback! Also nice to see you getting back into playing some Lemmings/NL!


Will take a look at the NL entries sometime in the coming days!

[Armani]

@zanzindorf
Thanks a lot for the positive feedbacks! Yes, I often try to do some interesting things with original lemmings styles. That's aestheticall pleasing in a different way from custom styles imo.
Your solution is unfortunately a slight backroute. This update will hopefully block the pixel-perfect backroute and enforce the solution I have in mind!

[zanzindorf]

@kaywhyn, @Armani

Ooo, interesting changes. I will give these levels another try soon.

Attached are my replays for the rule 2 submissions:

Spoiler

Got a New Toy: Loved this one, my solution feels pretty intended. I was stumped for a long time, and was even thinking about it at work today. Glad I finally beat it

Where No Lem Has Gone Before: I solved without lasers and gliders, so I'm guessing my solution is unintended. Otherwise, the theming is great. The text being backwards on the teleporters is kinda neat. I think that's hinting which ones lead to the mirrored side and which one lead within the same side? If so, that's a very nice touch.

Lagacy Of The Waffentraeger: I'm about 50/50 on if this is intended or not, but if it is a legit route, this is a very fun level. It looks impossible, which forces you to explore. I like that If it is intended, I struggled a bit to get the lemming spacing just right to pull off the stoner/shimmy boost. Though, I could be lasering in the wrong spot or something. Love the tanks. Gives me Super Mario 3 vibes.

Lemmings vs the Jolly Roger Pirates: I'm guessing my solution is a back route, so I'll wait for a revision before saying too much, but regardless, love the pirate ship. The design gives me a Banjo Kazooie vibe, and I like it

[kaywhyn]

@zanzindorf

Doh! That's quite a bad backroute that you found for my R2. I originally didn't have a swimmer hatch, and quite honestly I totally forgot that it's one when I later realized the solution I originally had in mind could be made to work with some changes to the skillset. For V2, I removed some of the wooden staircase terrain. If the level is properly patched up, it's supposed to be one of the harder R2's!

Thanks again for the compliment on the design! If the title alone isn't enough to indicate that it's supposed to be a pirate ship, then most definitely the Jolly Roger flag in the level is the complete giveaway, or at least is supposed to let others know I meant to depict a pirate ship. You seemed to have been able to tell right away that it's supposed to be a pirate ship. Nice! However, as you can see, the reason why it's very goofy and comical looking is because of my extremely limited or lack of artistic abilities and admittedly I think I did a far better job of making it look like some kind of stick figure drawing I never was an artist, and still am not. My designs definitely wouldn't be able to top ones like yours, Armani's, and all the other designers on here who are quite talented artistically.

For the music, it's from an online game that I used to play all the time that my sister showed me a long time ago called Gun Bound. It's the music that plays when the game goes into "sudden death" mode, after a set pre-determined amount of moves if neither team has completely eliminated every player from the opposing team first. It's definitely one of my favorite tracks from that game Here, I thought it quite fitting considering that there's essentially a "war" going on here with the enemy in my level

Thanks again for the replays and showing two of my levels can still be backrouted! Keep up the good work, you're doing great!

Oh, I pre-tested all of Icho's entries, so I can tell you that for Icho's R2 you have the intended solution For his R1, keep at it. I too struggled a lot with it but in the end found an acceptable alternative to his intended, so you're not alone in struggling with it. I found it quite difficult, mostly due to the very high RR but also there being so many possibilities, most of which don't even work!

[kaywhyn]

R1's and R2's solved. Replays attached. The one for eric's R2 is for V1, but I have confirmed it still works for V2. Only needed to play two levels each for the rulesets, since I pre-tested all of Icho's and of course I don't need to play my own levels other than for a replay proof of solvability and make sure everything is fine

R1 Feedback

Armani's Tensegrity V2

Wow, this one was quite tough but really good! The solution here is extremely well-hidden. There's plenty of possibilities here that look like they can work but they ultimately don't, mostly because you're left with at least a skill short. For a very long time, I thought I had to send two lemmings up to the top around the middle area when in fact only the climber needs to. In particular, the first shimmier is very hard to see. Also, I kept thinking all of the builders needed to be in the same place to set up some kind of shimmier scenario I did have the right idea to dig down the chain at the very top nearly the entire time. It's also clear that you need one builder to get to the exit, so that leaves 3 builders to work with, but it was very hard to see how the remaining ones need to be used! I also kept thinking to bash through the very long barrel pipe to get around the issue of getting two lemmings over to the other side of all the obstacles at the bottom, but this proved problematic as I would only be able to send the climber over. Much later down the line, I realized the answer is the climber goes over it while the shimmier simply uses the bottom of the pipe to get over everything. The remaining issue I had was simply to allow the climber enough time to dig the chain and to get the builder in place in time so that when the regular lemming finishes at the bottom everything would be set for him to shimmy. Here, I was a dummy in that I kept thinking to send the middle lemming as a climber while the top one was bashing to the right. This would work, except the digger on the chain isn't anywhere near done and hence the non-climber would catch up too soon with finishing the builder. Later I realized I had it the other way, where the top lemming does the building over the gap, turns around, digs, and then releases the bottom lemming with a basher by going underneath both barrels. The rest of the solution fell into place. Great job with this level!  

eric's Brick or Treat V2

Ok, I was a big dummy here for a long time thinking some extremely fiddly timing needs to be done here, but turns out none of that is needed. I had all kinds of problems due to not being able to see what the basher was for. That is quite neat to make a turnaround for the slider near the exits.

I know this was discussed before, but you definitely love your extremely long shimmier sections. All well and good, especially as I love the shimmier a lot too, except players can't do anything but just watch for quite a while and nothing else needs to be done. The skill does have a lot of puzzle potential, but there are definitely far better puzzle usages of the shimmier other than drag out levels with very lengthy shimmying/swimming, for example.

R2 Feedback

Armani's Got a New Toy V1

Wow, I really like your depiction of a helicopter/plane here! Not a very hard level and somewhat easier than your R1, but still not a complete cakewalk. I'm thinking my solution is mostly intended since I do have a shimmier leftover. I wonder if I got the main trick of digging down the first stoner with the slider and still be able to contain the crowds with the second one In my initial attempts, I had a slider go out near the exit but it turns out you would need multiple shimmiers so that he is able to land on terrain. I told myself ok if I can get the slider to be a glider as well then I wouldn't need to spend any shimmiers to keep him safe until he is ready to be sacrificed after doing the work and releasing the crowds via the laser. I think that's why I had a shimmier left.

eric's Where No Lem Has Gone Before V1/V2

As mentioned, my replay for V1 works for V2, so it seems it would just break zanzindorf's replay. I must say that V2 is a huge improvement over V1 even though the changes aren't too major. In V1, you allowed almost no leg room on when the blockers need to be released. I literally had to release them almost instantly when the level started to have any chance of hitting all buttons before the neutrals slipped by the exits! Yea, not a good idea IMO. Hence, V1 is quite unforgiving in regards to timing. With V2, there's far more leeway and therefore this is greatly appreciated.

Another level that is huge for seemingly no reason, seems you like those too. I guess I can understand why both R1 and R2 need to be so that the timing all works out, but keep in mind to make levels only as big as they need to be in order to get your idea/concept in. If the same level can be done in a smaller size, that's generally preferable, and if levels need to be huge for any reason make sure there's a purpose for that, e.g, not very long walking sections where nothing is done for a while.

Will go through the R3's later, I'm pretty much exhausted mentally completely for the day

[IchoTolot]

@zanzindorf

Intended solution to my R2! Great job!
For the lemming spacing thing:

Spoiler

I left the RR changeable to give the player control over it, so it would not be totally frustraiting.

Also I might wait a few days until a complete pack update as backroutes and changes seem a bit frequent for now.

[zanzindorf]

Intended solution to my R2!

Yay! Good good.

I played through the rule 3 levels. I'm still stuck on level 3, but the others are complete.

Spoiler

Color Coded: Very fun level! Probably the best and hardest blockers only level I've ever played.

Bee Here For You!: My solution isn't very tidy. Since I had the resources to brute force, that's what I did lol. Fairly easy level, but fun.

Fun Teleportation Race in Space: I probably found a back route since I have a few skills left over. I feel like I get the core idea of the level though. Nice aesthetics, cool level design, nice work

I'll come back to confusion cross. Aptly named lol

[kaywhyn]

@zanzindorf

That is indeed a backroute for my R3, and so you have succeeded in backrouting all 3 of my levels I think I was aware of that start and somehow thought it wouldn't work because of other stuff players need to do for it, but nope, you showed me otherwise the level can still be cheesed! So, once more I continue to have a history of my levels never being initially 100% backroute proof from the get go when first released This is after all the extensive backroute testing I do on my own too!

So, for V2 I modified the steel platform. In addition, I discovered a backroute of my own before I got replays from anyone for the level, but decided to leave it in until I started getting solutions before patching that out too.

If you feel like resolving my levels, that would be awesome, but if not, no worries. There's always Armani and Icho for that Also, Also my congratulations on solving all the contest levels except for Icho's R1 and R3. I'm sure you'll get those two in no time, though Indeed, the fact you're struggling with them seems to confirm my feedback assessment I gave to Icho of them both being difficult. During pre-testing, I backrouted R3 several times, but I didn't find any version of it easy at all. It took me quite a while to find those backroutes myself! Now that it's all patched up after a few versions, R3 is probably just as difficult as his R1, possibly even a bit more. So, sorry you're playing quite a patched up R3 thanks to me , but out of his entries his R3 is my favorite one. The solution is just very well-hidden and hence very difficult to see and find.

On the other hand, if the intended solutions to mine are enforced, then I would say that my R2 is probably the hardest one IMO, with R3 maybe being a close second. However, as I've shown time and time again, both Armani and Icho are constantly giving me the feedback that they thought my levels are tricky/difficult even though I myself keep thinking that they're "easy" relatively speaking to all the other entries. Since this has been the case from the very first LDC I participated in almost 3 years ago, I think it's time I drop that notion of thinking my own levels are not that hard then!


And I have solved all the R3's, which again there were only two I needed to play. In addition, I have resolved eric's R1. I have attached my entire replay collection, as well as reattach my solutions to geoo's Lix entries, minus replays for Icho's and my levels. I will attach intended solutions to my levels closer to the end of the playing phase For Icho's levels, I pre-tested them all as usual, and I advise you to try and solve them on your own first! If you're still stuck, feel free to ask either of us or anyone who has managed to solve them for hints and if still no luck one of us can provide a replay. Same with my levels if you're stuck!

All of these seem good and backroute proof now, but well, I'll wait for confirmation of my solutions from the authors.

@eric

Once again, this is a reminder to be sure to delete your earlier posts except for the most recent one from the update topic! You can reattach the most recent version of your R2 to it if you wish.

For R1, I have a shimmier left, but I'm guessing it's simply a more efficient solution that allowed me to spare a skill and therefore not really a backroute.

For R3, it's way too repetitive for my liking, but at least it's an anything goes kind of level, with plenty of excess skills that doesn't make it frustrating in any way. I can definitely see the striking resemblance of similar design styles with that of WillLem!


@Armani

Color Coded

Wow, you totally blew my mind away with how you managed to pull off making a completely non-trivial blockers only level! This definitely reminded me of Planet 1 and Planet 2 from NepsterLems, where they were a miners only and a climbers only level, respectively. I described this level on Discord as Fun 3 - Tailor-made for blockers but on crack The beginning is a little difficult, but you just have to play around with the placement of the blockers until you can bunch the groups up properly. Even after getting that down, I kept being a lemming short of the requirement After a while, I gave up after a lengthy session and came back to the level about 4 hours ago. It turns out that I had the solution the entire time, I was simply using one blocker too many. It took me a while to realize that you can block close enough on one side of the trap and still turn the lemmings coming from the other side. This didn't occur to me even though I saw the turning fallers in midair one very quickly. I especially love the splitter part at the end and how to create the bunching up of lemmings in pairs by placing the blocker at the very top in such a way so that the one coming from the right to use the teleporter can bunch up with the one who turned around on the blocker and back to the left. Nice!

Also another thing I discovered but ultimately doesn't really help to solve the level I think is that I didn't realize that the trigger point of the receivers is actually in the air. Meaning, when you block in front of the teleporter, they will use it and then immediately get released because they have nothing to stand on. I thought that would help me solve the problem of being a lemming short, but nope, it didn't.

All rightie, as it's still very early, I will wait for a while before recording my videos of the solutions! Will most likely be sometime next year, so see you all in 2024 for my playthrough videos of the contest entries in the new year!

[Armani]

All the solutions to my r1 and r3 levels are intended. Well done
I updated the r2 level

Here're my solutions to NL r1 levels

Brick or Treat

I like the concept of bouncing off the shimmier to buy time and each lemming takes its own route! My solution spares some skills so it could be not fully intended.

The Amazing Lemming Tightrope Act

I got two solutions and they both look somewhat intended Definitely reminds me of one your United level where you have to make multiple splatforms with gliders before any of crowd catch up and splat.

A-MAZE-ING Brick House Evacuation

This feels somewhat intended! Zigzag basher with the cloner&blocker, lasering from below to make a hole for the swimmers, all looking good! That was a very clever level without any precise execution. great job! The leftover jumper is a little bit suspicious though

[Armani]

And here're my solutons to NL's r2 and r3 levels as well

Where No Lem Has Gone Before

love the depiction of your level I think my solution is intended as I used every skill and all pairs of teleporter/receiver at least once!

Legacy Of The Waffentraeger

I knew there's goint to be at least one level depicting a tank for this ruleset! It was releatively easy comapared to other two levels from you but it was still fun to play!

Lemmings vs the Jolly Roger Pirates

Unlike the backroute I showed you on discord, this solution use most of the skills, goes all around the ship and remove the zombie pirate king at the top. The solution has some leftover skills though so there're probably some missing details

Bee Here For You!

It's a little bit too repetitive in my opinion but nice design nontheless I think I wasted some skills and there're more efficient solutions than mine

Crossing Confusion Cross

It took me longest to solve. Unfortunately I think I backrouted this one. Originally I was always one or two skills short but after I realize that I don't need to spend a platformer at the exit area, I suddenly found a solution that spared quite a lot of skills

Fun Teleportation Race in Space

This also looks very intended! Making every lemming keep distance from each other was a bit tricky. I also had to fine tune the release rate so I can send worker lemmings at the correct moment!

[ericderkovits]

Updated my Rule 1 (V5)  and Rule 2 (V2) levels

Kaywhyn's and Armani's solutions are both the intended ones for my R2 (V2)

Armani's solution is not the intended one for V4 of R1, so I added another Axeman trap near the walker pickup.

for my R3 level, Any solution that solves the level is ok. It appears I was too generous with the skills, but no changes needed. This level is an anyway type of level.

[IchoTolot]

@Armani:

R1: Both solutions are fine! Great job!:thumbsup:
The green side solution was the one I intended and the blue side solution was found by kaywhyn during testing.

R2: Also intended!

R3: Yeah that's a backroute. I uploaded a V2 and hope that two steel blocks are enough to fix it.

[kaywhyn]

@Armani

Wow, let me say that I appreciate your feedback/compliments! That always brings a smile to my face, especially as I doubt my own abilities a lot and don't have that much self-confidence or self-esteem. I'm very happy that you continue to enjoy my levels.

R1 - Yea, that's a backroute, as there are some parts that aren't intended, although certainly closer to what I had in mind. For V3, I added some terrain which will hopefully point you more towards my intended solution now

Spoiler

Yup, you got the intended use of the laser to make a hole for the swimmer neutrals to reach the bottom exit My intention here is to show off this power of the laser which has the ability to go through even water and continue on its way until it reaches its maximum range, doesn't have any more terrain to destroy, or encounters OWAs/steel. I would imagine this is likely the hardest thing to see in the solution, especially as I'm thinking players would mess around and wonder how the heck do you access the bottom exit. Well, this is where a ranged skill like the laser really shines!

R2 - Even though this isn't as glaring as the backroute you showed me on Discord, this is still a pretty bad one that's quite far from my intended solution. For V3, I added OWAs to block off parts of both routes you took, as well as removed some of the wooden staircase terrain.

I'm happy to read from you that you recognized that I meant to depict a pirate ship for R2 If it isn't already obvious from the level title, the Jolly Roger flag in the level would most likely be the complete giveaway to that, but even with that it still might not be obvious to the player in any way. The reason why it's very goofy and comical looking is due to my extremely limited to practically non-existent artistic abilities I was never an artist to begin with, and I still am not. Here, I admit I looked at Strato's Viking ship from Lemmings Open Air, as well as your Sniper in the Forest level to see how you both managed to make a ship, but as you can see I ended up doing it very differently from either of you

R3 - 100% intended! Great job! Here, I got a bit of inspiration from two of Icho's L2 Space Lemmings United levels, one from the Tension rank, another from the War rank It's also my very first L2 Space level, and I'm happy you like it


As for your solutions to Icho's levels, wow, that is so amazing that your second solution to his R1 is the solution I found during pre-testing. Great minds sure think alike! And yes, you're correct in that it immediately reminded me of the United level "Framed with the Best Skills," except this one is far harder due to a much higher RR. It's also NL skills only just like the United level (edit: ah, not quite, all NL except floaters are provided too)

For his R3, oops, that was the backroute I feared could work by reducing the lemming count which I wasn't able to make happen. By backrouting it the way you did, now I'm full of guilt that I was a nitpick and told Icho I thought the original amount of shimmiers when the lemming count was 12 was a bit too on the excessive side However, I don't have any reason to be, as I tried it with the 12-lemming count version and indeed your backroute with a minor adjustment still works for it. In addition, what you did with the lasers was what I came up with in an earlier version of the level in pre-testing, but I couldn't get it to work due to slider problems!

Spoiler

I didn't think about maxing out the RR like you did when half of the lemmings already came out the entrance. Instead, some kept splatting once the platformer went far enough with the second one and therefore that's why I thought this backroute wouldn't work.

Like I told zanzindorf, Icho's R3 is my favorite one of his entries this time. You'll love the solution when you find it!