First Note: Don´T Make it

[MASTER-88]

Armani Told me with this and We Lemmings verterans don´t want this.  We are make own those pack for years.

I'm pretty sure this is what you intended. But if I remember correctly, Namida confirmed that the fact that non floater/glider lemmings can enter a exit midair is a bug in the discord Lemmings Forum server. So it will be blocked in the future Neolemmix update.

There is some Nuke bomb levels ant etc.. Those goes totally broken if someone make  that fucking crap udpate. I´ll personally lost at least few levels. Crane will lost at least one and not know about Aramani or others. We are working we packs with months/years. Im not want that stupid things happen. Its not even bug. Its just hitbox glitch.

I´ll know many noobies not care about this, but we lemmings veterans are strongly against this. I´ll hope i´ll say what i have to say. Curse you. I´ll be against this. That mean i have to start fix my old packs again.

Someone later told be why its impossinlöe? Im not are there alwaysw Then its will be impossible.

[MASTER-88]

Serisoly we need that thing very rarery. Its one super advance trick Most Pack builders  here is one Special level whih use that.

Its usually are we bonus levels. Its not causal trick what we use. Its very hard create and very hard perfrom. Im not want we locked it with this single stupid reason.

[Strato Incendus]

Again, I'm sorry to say I struggle to understand your posts.

I don't spend much time on Discord, so I don't know which debate this is taken from. I'm only fairly certain that so-called "direct-drop" behaviour (i.e., non-Floaters and non-Gliders being able to enter an exit in midair by falling onto the trigger) has not been an intended mechanic in NeoLemmix for a very long time. This is not a recent update; it has been the default for NeoLemmix for at least as long as I've been on the forums (i.e., over five years).

SuperLemmix, in contrast, as far as I recall, actively reintroduced direct-drop behaviour; partly in order to set itself apart from NeoLemmix, partly just because WillLem liked it, I guess.
So if you want to make or preserve levels that require direct drops into the exit by non-Floaters and/or non-Gliders, the SuperLemmix level editor should be able to open them.

Nuke solutions don't require direct drop to work, as long as there is some steel chamber underneath the area to-be-nuked, which the lemmings can then fall into without destroying it by bombing. That steel also acts as terrain inside the exit trigger area, so the nuking lemmings can enter that exit, even as Oh-Noers.



Also, who is "we Lemmings veterans"? Most of us are indeed long-time NeoLemmix users, too, and I don't recall any other NeoLemmix players criticising the lack of direct drop recently. (Well, except for WillLem, perhaps, but he just went ahead and built his own fork of NeoLemmix, by creating SuperLemmix .) It has nothing to do with whether or not somebody is a "noob".

Frankly, when it comes to nuke solutions, most of them I have seen I don't consider particularly inventive. It's hard to spot the first time you encounter it, but soon you learn to identify typical terrain shapes and/or skill-panel setups that make it pretty obvious that only a nuke solution can work for the last part of a given level. And once you've learned how to spot it, I find this trick gets old pretty quickly. Kind of like hidden traps or manual steel. Which is typically something "noobs" like to play around with at first (myself included).

So if anything, I'd actually say a newer player or level designer might care more about direct drop and nuke solutions. Because the first time you see it, you think, "Haha, isn't this funny? Other players will never be able to figure this out!" Only then do you discover that most people on the forums have been there and done that already - and that's part of the reason why NeoLemmix got rid of it, I would wager. Because it's a feature that tempts new level designers to try the same old "gags" in their solutions over and over again, while more experienced players might think that direct drop and nuke solutions have already been done to death. By design: If every new level creator tries this stuff, it's like the same joke being told over and over again, only by a different person every time.

[MASTER-88]

Okay thanks your comment. Yes im not spreak native Engclish and yes its make me hear sounds retred. Did you can speak Native finninhs? Misundrestoondt strated happen alltimes. Becasue this  is legal site. There is a lot peoples entire differet countries.


Only thing what i´ll know and prove, i am extrmelyy good lemmings player. Maybe Top 10-20 in world. Lemmings skills is my native language. Still new fins still happen.

Im not want fix my all pack again with some reason. I did once my 2nd pack, because 1st pack glider routes changed. This fix take me 34 hours.

IBTW m mean nuke bomb. I mean this animatoon. There i same animation with many other skills.

[Strato Incendus]

Did you can speak Native finninhs?

No, I'm German, but there's also quite a few other Finnish users on this forum.

Im not want fix my all pack again with some reason. I did once my 2nd pack, because 1st pack glider routes changed. This fix take me 34 hours.

This sounds like you built your first packs for a different engine than NeoLemmix, or built them for NeoLemmix many years ago (say, version 1.43, like my pack Lemmicks, which was deliberately made for that engine). And now that you're trying to port them to New Formats NeoLemmix, you find it behaves differently?

Because there are indeed quite a few mechanical changes NeoLemmix has undergone over the years:
- level sides changed from solid to deadly
- then later, with the shift from Old to New Formats, the ceiling switches from solid to deadly, too (because of the Shimmier)
- the Glider physics changed because of the Shimmier
- and, among others, also direct drop into exits having been disabled. But as I've explained, this has been the case for a long time. So if you need to adapt your levels to this now, I wonder how old these levels are?

This can seem like a lot to deal with if you have to adapt existing levels to all of these changes at once. To some extent, I brought such a scenario on myself when converting Lemmings World Tour to New Formats — because I had insisted on first completing it for Old Formats, when the community had already started shifting to New Formats.

Direct drop into exits, meanwhile, wasn't even possible in Old Formats anymore. (In fact, my Lemmings World Tour level "Slide it in" relies on direct drop NOT being possible, and that was already the case in Old Formats.)

Hence, I don't understand yet why this suddenly causes a problem to any of your levels. I see you've been on the forums since 2011, so you might still have some levels for an engine even older than NeoLemmix 1.43. Or even for an engine preceding NeoLemmix (Lemmini? SuperLemmini? Lemmix?). But that's the problem with using several engines: There is no guarantee of cross-platform compatibility.

Perhaps direct drop became possible again by accident in a recent / experimental version of NeoLemmix? Are you talking about the experimental version of NeoLemmix, featuring the new objects? Because in the latest stable version of NeoLemmix, I'm pretty certain it is NOT possible for non-Floaters or non-Gliders to enter an exit in mid-air.

If this is the case: That's the reason why we're advised not to create packs for experimental versions of any engine yet.

[MASTER-88]

What everi. Its seems you not like me and im like you. BTW Crane will kill you when you ruin his level. He was mad enought when i broke those. LOL.

Yes i orginally used very firrst neo lemmings player and and its create impossible levels. I was really mad. I have t to add all pixelss corrext Luckily at this point threre wa only 150 levels. Its still take 20 hours total.

I´ll personally loadedd Neolleminhs 12. 5 with current best. Im not want we make change here. Most peoples are works his pack for years and we have to fix all over again. Its not fair humas who make extrme levels where pixels is pixels. 1-2 pixel error marginal migjt make some 3 5  hbour fix per extreme level.

[MASTER-88]

Serisolusöy talkinmg about. Most we who are make large pack don´t want those replays got broken. You only can imagine 600 levels one by one. I did once and its take me 2 weeks and 12 hours per day about.

I did Super  Lemmings Demopack. I´ll knew its full amount bugs, so i let its shorth. I´ll see it laterly totally broken. So i´ll want make levels neolemmings.

Animation bygs is one idea whih most advance player use. Its seems bug, but IMO its extreme technique.

[Proxima]

It's frustrating when levels get broken by updates, for sure, but I think it's important to remember that Lemmings (including all clone engines) is a game, and everything we do, including engine changes and level design, is primarily aimed at giving the player the best possible experience.

It's not fun to be stuck on a level, maybe for a long time and coming back to it every so often to see if this time you can finally beat it, and then discover that the solution is to take advantage of a bug in the engine that you didn't know about.

And it was absolutely a bug that oh-noers could enter a mid-air exit while normal lemmings cannot. As mentioned, SuperLemmix allows all lemmings to enter mid-air exits, so that is the intended behaviour for that game (and the same for Cheapo and early versions of NeoLemmix). When NeoLemmix moved from the "one executable per pack" model to having one central executable, it was essential to remove behaviour options and have just one behaviour. After a forum discussion, we collectively decided on "no direct drop for normal lemmings; floaters/gliders can still enter mid-air exits". It was purely accidental that oh-noers were overlooked when other states were banned from exiting; this was fixed in the next update after it was noticed. Much later, someone noticed that stoner oh-noers could still exit because they hadn't been specifically prevented; this was also immediately fixed.

Fortunately, NeoLemmix development is planned to come to a final version very soon, after which there won't be any more bug fixes, so you won't have to worry about levels being broken again. However, I would still say that if you find any behaviour in the engine that is clearly a bug, it's not a good idea to use it in levels.

[Strato Incendus]

What everi. Its seems you not like me and im like you.

I have nothing against you. I'm merely trying to make you aware of why New Formats NeoLemmix has the mechanics it has.

BTW Crane will kill you when you ruin his level.

Well, I'm not ruining anyone's solutions here. But there's obviously a difference between a player breaking a level by finding a backroute, and the engine developers breaking a bunch of levels by changing something about the general physics of the engine.

Some players, in turn, are also mad at level creators, when the creator "breaks" their solution by fixing a backroute.
However, all that demonstrates is that this solution was never an intended one in the first place.
And especially when somebody is pre-release-testing a pack, they kind of have to expect that the level creator will repeatedly break their solutions, until as many backroutes as possible have been fixed.

I´ll personally loadedd Neolleminhs 12. 5 with current best. Im not want we make change here.

As I've stated, direct drop into exits has not been an intended part of NeoLemmix for years. If it somehow reappeared now, that is a bug / glitch, not an intended behaviour. And solutions should not rely on bugs or glitches.

To give you a similar case, in Lemmings Open Air I originally used the old Glider behaviour to have a Glider jump on top of a Stacker's stack, by assigning a Shimmier to him right in front of the stack. When Glider physics were changed while Lemmings Open Air was in development, I had to adapt the solutions of those levels.

That actually was a new physics change. Direct drop into exits is not; it will merely be a bugfix.

I did Super  Lemmings Demopack. I´ll knew its full amount bugs, so i let its shorth. I´ll see it laterly totally broken. So i´ll want make levels neolemmings.

This is why WillLem warned us that SuperLemmix is still in development. Hence, I've halted my development of any SuperLemmix levels. Among others, because Shimmier physics are about to change for version 2.6, with shimmying Climbers being able to turn around upward corners. If I create solutions where the Shimmier still behaves in the previous manner (i.e., like in NeoLemmix), I would already know now that I'll have to adapt those solutions later.

Yes, NeoLemmix is stable, and will not undergo any fundamental physics changes anymore — while in SuperLemmix, a lot of the intended physics haven't even been decided on yet (including things such as assigning Blockers to Swimmers etc.).
However, "stable", at least for the time being, as Proxima has outlined, does not mean "no more bugfixes if bugs are discovered," and direct drop into exits, as people have told you, is a bug — not an intended behaviour in NeoLemmix.

Serisolusöy talkinmg about. Most we who are make large pack don´t want those replays got broken. You only can imagine 600 levels one by one. I did once and its take me 2 weeks and 12 hours per day about.

As the creator of Lemmings World Tour, the largest pack in existence, I can assure you, I totally know this from experience — I don't need to imagine it. I've first faced this issue during the conversion of the pack from Old to New Formats, as explained in my previous post; now, I'm facing it again with the conversion to SuperLemmix. Mainly because of all the levels where Stoners need to be replaced with Freezers.

Then again, for reasons stated above, I've halted all development of my SuperLemmix content until WillLem gives the official "go!", combined with the assurance that physics will remain stable for a while. That includes conversion of my existing packs to SuperLemmix. Right now, I totally understand WillLem needs the freedom to decide the physics of SuperLemmix as he sees fit, independently of existing content — precisely in order to avoid larger physics changes later, when there will already be more existing SuperLemmix content.

Animation bygs is one idea whih most advance player use. Its seems bug, but IMO its extreme technique.

That depends on your definition of "an advanced player". I assume you already honed your Lemmings skills back with the original Lemmings games, if you've been playing that long.

NeoLemmix in particular, however, has deliberately moved away from the original DMA Lemmings games in quite a few ways. And "animation bugs", or deceptive elements in general (manual steel, hidden traps and exits etc.), are precisely those elements that the NeoLemmix community by and large has grown to frown upon. Then again, those are not features a player can use — only a level designer — so they have nothing to do with level-solving skill.

The behaviour you're referring to, with oh-noers being able to exit in midair, is not merely an animation bug, but an actual (albeit accidental) part of game physics. It's something that currently seems to work, but it is not consistent with player expectations — if players normally constantly experience that regular Fallers can't exit in mid-air.

If I remember correctly, back when that discussion was ongoing (see below), we briefly considered whether Floaters or Gliders that are turned into Bomber or Stoners (=oh-noers) should still be able to exit in midair, since they are still Floaters or Gliders, respectively. And then, the reasoning was that they shouldn't, because they need to drop their parachutes in order to put their hands on their heads to oh-no.

It was purely accidental that oh-noers were overlooked when other states were banned from exiting; this was fixed in the next update after it was noticed. Much later, someone noticed that stoner oh-noers could still exit because they hadn't been specifically prevented; this was also immediately fixed.

Thanks for the context, Proxima!

I think I remember trying something like this out. But if I recall correctly, I was trying to use the oh-noer state to save a lemming from splatting, by making an oh-noer fall and land in the exit before splatting. This was actually on solid terrain, though, as far as I remember. Perhaps it was just something about oh-noers being unable to splat.

Either way, it did not work, because I discovered that oh-noers can't even fall far enough to cover splat height before they explode. So that solution never came into existence in the first place.

[namida]

Proxima's post is mostly spot-on about this. The one correction:

Much later, someone noticed that stoner oh-noers could still exit because they hadn't been specifically prevented; this was also immediately fixed.

While the fix has been implemented in the source code, it isn't yet included in a released stable build. It is included in the new-objects experimentals and will be included in 12.13.0 stable build.

[MASTER-88]

Im too bad with enghils to discuss with those things. So i´ll give up myself., Its not mean i´ll accept it. Thats also Amnesnysty not accept death penalty like me, but reblicna shit losers still use and can´t make nothing about with this diktatorship


We cannot make nothing about Lemmings Lords,  so what ever. If someone start ask me why my levels are impossible. I´ll just ask Namida.?  Im  not really haved motivation fix over 500 levels mathc with new things. I did very big progress to  fix my levels and im not are motvivate make it again..

[namida]

If your level relies on exploiting bugs in order to solve, then of course it is going to break when the bug gets fixed. The way to avoid this is to not make levels that rely on bugs to solve.

There can be cases where a bugfix ends up breaking a level that does not rely on the bug, simply due to exactly how the fix works. Such cases tend to be very rare, and more often than not the level itself doesn't break, just the replay, and it's usually just a matter of a few small tweaks to make a new replay that does work.

You are majorly overreacting here. Taking as an example the level you sent me - the replay fails with the bugfix implemented, but only by one lemming. That lemming can be saved simply by slightly changing the timing of one skill assignment, so the level as a whole is fine. If you've followed good practice and kept replay files for all your levels, you can run a mass replay check with the new version, and see exactly what levels fail. Unless you are deliberately relying on bugs as part of your levels' solutions (which is something you should not be doing in the first place), chances are very few if any replays will break, and most of those will be just the replay breaking.

[Strato Incendus]

can´t make nothing about with this diktatorship

We voted on this, so if anything, it's "the tyranny of the many".
Also, given you've been here since 2011, the vote definitely took place at a time when you could have taken part in it...

[IchoTolot]

I can at least report for the current experimental version:

Next to no levels break with the next/final set of physic fixes!

I have encountered 1 level that needs a replay fix and 1 level that needs some real adjustments to make it solvable again due to a slider fix (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5795.0).

I also had a few replay fixes because of an overlapping blocker trigger area fix (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=6133.0).

With your level in question we would have 1 more level that at least needs a replay fix (Reason: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=6248.0).

This is a very low rate of levels/replays that would need adjustments!

Be assured I am normally a voice here that advocates very heavily for backwards compability and the final patch is not a big problem in that regard.

This I would call a very good rate for a final physics clean-up patch. (Maybe if 1 very drastic thing is being found that will still be fixed but so far it seems very final.)

Let's say we had patches in the earlier days where I had to fix like 20% of my stuff.

Some other things to watch out for:

https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5991.0
https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5864.0
https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=6468.0

Here I found no occurance of a broken replay/level because of this.

My recommendation in this matter:

Breathe in and out, check out the exp version in a seperate installation (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5852.0 - you can also see my reports so far here: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5871.0) and see what levels would need adjustments - through mass replay checks.
You will most likely see that only a small handful are affected and most likely only need a small adjustment of the replay rather than a real fix.
If you don't have master replays for all of your levels then I would call this a very good opportunity to create some!

Also if you do this please report your numbers and which levels needed some care (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5871.0)! That is in general very helpful information for all!

[Crane]

Please don't speak for me, MASTER-88.  I may get frustrated when levels of mine get broken, but not angry at the solver, and I would certainly not kill them.

Lemmings Cranium is designed for NeoLemmix and I think all the levels use well-established mechanics and try to avoid those that are questionable (e.g. a blocker stopping a basher mid-stroke in such a way that the blocker is also released). More than anything, I try for my levels to be fair.