[✓][SUG] Shimmier --> Climber Transition

[WillLem]

Commit 57bc45cf5 implements this feature; we just need to decide whether a transition state is needed; we can test it out in the 2.6 RC and see what we think.

[Strato Incendus]

Great, thanks for implementing this, WillLem! I look forward to seeing how it turns out in practice.

The exception to this is if the lem is also a Slider, in which case they slide down, dangle, and ultimately fall facing the opposite direction to their approach.

For added utility, at that point you could even assign another Shimmier to make the lemming shimmy back the way he came. This can be useful, since bouncing a Shimmier with a Blocker usually requires some fiddly setup (otherwise, the lemming will easily just shimmy over the Blocker's head). And since Shimmiers don't turn around automatically when hitting regular walls (luckily!), we can use tricks like these to turn them around instead (shimmy, climb, slide back down, shimmy back).

[Strato Incendus]

I just noticed something that I hadn't realised during testing of SuperLemmix 2.6 - because the release candidate didn't come with all the styles, there was one L2 Space level I had created earlier which I couldn't open in the RC version yet.

This level involved a Shimmier climbing up from a Laserer tunnel, using the new behaviour where Shimmiers can turn and climb up corners.
What I didn't expect was that a sloped ceiling, like the 45° angle created by the Laserer, obviously only has one pixel at the top, so the lemming doesn't transition into a Climber there - and hence, also doesn't turn around, but falls off the sloped ceiling once it ends, just like Shimmiers used to do when reaching a straight edge of a ceiling, too.

A Shimmier will only transition into a Climber (and turn around in the process) if, at the end of the shimmy-able celing, there is a straight wall above it of at least two pixels.
Diagonal Shimmier-friendly ceilings only have a single pixel at the top, and hence, a shimmying Climber will not turn around here, but simply fall off the ceiling and continue facing the same direction.



In sum, I'd say this is a good thing, as on this particular level, it required me to use another skill to create a second pixel there, in order to make the Shimmier climb and turn around.
The level became more challenging as a result, which is welcome, since it's supposed to go on the final rank of whatever pack eventually emerges from this.

I just wanted to remind everyone of this behaviour, and check whether it might be a bug, so that, if that's the case, I don't make more levels relying on this 1-pixel difference.
Don't worry, I'm not actually creating pixel-precise solutions here - rather, the difference of one pixel in terrain makes a conceptual difference here: It defines whether you need to use another skill to make the Shimmier climb and turn, or whether the terrain by itself will already cause him to climb and turn.

Personally, I think it makes sense that a Shimmier needs at least two pixels in height above him (i.e., the smallest vertical wall possible, since a single pixel is not a wall yet) in order to transition into a Climber. Now, in hindsight, I think I even recall WillLem having mentioned this requirement when he first introduced this skill-mechanical change.

[WillLem]

I just noticed something that I hadn't realised during testing of SuperLemmix 2.6 - because the release candidate didn't come with all the styles, there was one L2 Space level I had created earlier which I couldn't open in the RC version yet.

You could always have added it to the styles yourself for testing purposes

a sloped ceiling, like the 45° angle created by the Laserer, obviously only has one pixel at the top

What do you mean by "at the top" here? Can you provide a visual example? It would make discussion of this somewhat easier, as I'm not 100% sure what the issue is here.

A Shimmier will only transition into a Climber (and turn around in the process) if, at the end of the shimmy-able celing, there is a straight wall above it of at least two pixels.

Correct, well spotted. This is so that Shimmiers don't immediately transition to Climbers when Shimmying up a 45-degree tunnel.

[Strato Incendus]

I just noticed something that I hadn't realised during testing of SuperLemmix 2.6 - because the release candidate didn't come with all the styles, there was one L2 Space level I had created earlier which I couldn't open in the RC version yet.

You could always have added it to the styles yourself for testing purposes

I wasn't sure whether the styles from 2.5 would still be compatible with 2.6.
Also, namida once deliberately omitted the majority of the styles for a release candidate, to disincentivise people from creating level packs for non-stable versions of NeoLemmix.

a sloped ceiling, like the 45° angle created by the Laserer, obviously only has one pixel at the top

What do you mean by "at the top" here? Can you provide a visual example? It would make discussion of this somewhat easier, as I'm not 100% sure what the issue is here.

All I meant is that Laserers created 45-degree slopes, too. Thus, if you laser through a rectangular block of terrain, the ceiling of the Laserer tunnel will always end in a triangle, just like the triangular slopes from any of the polygon-based Lemmings 2: The Tribes tilesets.

A Shimmier will only transition into a Climber (and turn around in the process) if, at the end of the shimmy-able celing, there is a straight wall above it of at least two pixels.

Correct, well spotted. This is so that Shimmiers don't immediately transition to Climbers when Shimmying up a 45-degree tunnel.

Ah, that was the information I needed, thanks a lot! This makes perfect sense, and even suggests there is no other way of doing this.
Otherwise, the Shimmier would turn around on each pixel of a 45-degree tunnel.

I guess the reason this doesn't come up in Lemmings 2: The Tribes is because Shimmiers there can't shimmy up 45-degree ceilings to begin with; instead, that is the Rock Climber's purpose. A Shimmier who is also a Rock Climber will probably turn around immediately upon encountering a 45-degree ceiling in Lemmings 2: The Tribes — if that slope points upwards. If the slope is tilted downwards, an L2 Shimmier will probably just fall down.

But I haven't tried this out yet in the Lemmings 2 engine; if I recall correctly, it's not too easy to find a spot in any of the four practice levels where one could try out this specific sequence of skills. (I remember toying around in the Egyptian practice level, trying to test out all of these interactions; but it's hard to find a suitable spot, and secondly, get a lemming to that spot, too.)

[WillLem]

But I haven't tried this out yet in the Lemmings 2 engine; if I recall correctly, it's not too easy to find a spot in any of the four practice levels where one could try out this specific sequence of skills

I used the snow level, there's a chunk of terrain at the far right that can be relatively easily set up to test Shimmier/Climber/etc interactions.

[WillLem]

Any thoughts on whether this feature needs a transition state? It's ended up making its way into stable (which it really shouldn't have until this had been decided upon! )

I really need to get my head around Git branches. They just seem like a recipe for headaches and forgetting which stuff is on which branch, but I suppose they could also be useful for things like this.

Anyway, yes - please shout if you think there should be a Shimmier -> Climber transition state. My current opinion is that there should be. Did we ever get those L2 sprites? It's probably in there somewhere...

[Strato Incendus]

I don't think there should be a transition animation , and I also don't think Lemmings 2 ever had one. The Shimmiers just transition into Climbers right away. Hence, there are also no sprites for such a state.

If it's already in the stable version as it is, and there's never been a precedent for such a transition state (from Lemmings 2 or otherwise), this sounds like needless extra work for everyone (you, level creators, and players for having their replays broken).

[WillLem]

I also don't think Lemmings 2 ever had one. The Shimmiers just transition into Climbers right away. Hence, there are also no sprites for such a state.

There is a very brief transition, probably no more than 4 frames, but it's enough to smooth the action significantly and make it look more intended/polished.

If it's already in the stable version as it is

Albeit by mistake. But yes, if people have already begun creating levels around this feature I can understand it might cause problems if it were changed now (but not necessarily; it depends on the level's design/solution).

I'm hoping for a bit of leniency on this one, because it wasn't actually meant to be an available feature until this aspect of it had been decided. Also, if it is going to be changed, far better to do so now whilst SLX levels are still fairly thin on the ground (as far as I know, only 1 level has yet been released which requires this mechanic, and its solution wouldn't be affected by adding a transition state).

You have mentioned some good reasons not to change it, but it really wouldn't be that much more work, especially if the sprite already exists from L2 (which it does).

Anyone else have any thoughts on this? I could do with a bit more feedback to nudge it one way or another.

[WillLem]

I also don't think Lemmings 2 ever had one. The Shimmiers just transition into Climbers right away. Hence, there are also no sprites for such a state.

There is a very brief transition, probably no more than 4 frames, but it's enough to smooth the action significantly and make it look more intended/polished.

If it's already in the stable version as it is

Albeit by mistake. But yes, if people have already begun creating levels around this feature I can understand it might cause problems if it were changed now (but not necessarily; it depends on the level's design/solution).

I'm hoping for a bit of leniency on this one, because it wasn't actually meant to be an available feature until this aspect of it had been decided. Also, if it is going to be changed, far better to do so now whilst SLX levels are still fairly thin on the ground (as far as I know, only 1 level has yet been released which requires this mechanic, and its solution wouldn't be affected by adding a transition state).

You have mentioned some good reasons not to change it, but it really wouldn't be that much more work, especially if the sprite already exists from L2 (which it does).

Anyone else have any thoughts on this? I could do with a bit more feedback to nudge it one way or the other.

[mobius]

gah, sad I totally missed out on this topic until now. I'd seen and thought of this many times. Seems to me at first glance, powerful for sure, but a level designer should easily [jinx myself] be able to design around it should they not want you to climb up. I want to test this out soon and hopefully I'll have  some feedback here soon.

Was probably mentioned but I think in L2 this was severely glitched? like it worked sometimes but sometimes it didn't?

[WillLem]

gah, sad I totally missed out on this topic until now

The feature wasn't actually meant to be released, so it can still be considered "in development" if you have any ideas. Particularly though, would you like to see the proposed transition state added or do you think the animation is fine as it is?

Was probably mentioned but I think in L2 this was severely glitched? like it worked sometimes but sometimes it didn't?

It works consistently as expected in SLX (from minimal testing thus far), haven't had a chance to properly look at it in L2.

[WillLem]

OK, I've begun work on the "Turner" state. It's a 6-frame animation that smooths out the Shimmier > Climber transition whilst also making it look more intended.

As with all lemming states, though, the question now arises as to its assignability (i.e. what skills should be assignable to a lemming in this state). It's an interesting one, as well, because currently the lemming turns around on the 3rd frame, but doesn't start Climbing until after the 6th. This means that there are 4 frames of assignability with the lem facing in the opposite direction to the one they originally came...!

(Note: this has been done to keep the physics consistent with what the player can visibly see in the animated sprite).

With regards to assignability, the closest relations to the Turner are the Hoister and Dangler; perhaps anything that's assignable to these 2 states should also be assignable to a Turner. This means that assigning a Walker to a Turner during the first 2 frames will have the lem drop facing in the original direction, whilst assigning during the last 4 will have them drop facing the opposite direction.

This makes the Turner a particularly unique lem state, as it's the only one which changes direction mid-animation!

Thoughts on this? Could do with some feedback before progressing with it any further.

[Strato Incendus]

With regards to assignability, the closest relations to the Turner are the Hoister and Dangler; perhaps anything that's assignable to these 2 states should also be assignable to a Turner. This means that assigning a Walker to a Turner during the first 2 frames will have the lem drop facing in the original direction, whilst assigning during the last 4 will have them drop facing the opposite direction.

That sounds like a good starting point to me.
I guess critical questions revolve around whether the Jumper and the Walker should be assignable to the Turner state?

Also, Turner sounds confusing, because it's the name of a skill in Lemmings 3D. Much like the "Ascender" or whatever the six-pixel-jump state is currently called used to be called Jumper in Old-Formats NeoLemmix.

[jkapp76]

I agree with Strato. This looks like a good starting point.
I forgot L3 had a different turner function too. Not sure how important that is.