[SUG] New skill - Runner [Shelved until further notice]

[jkapp76]

I think it's weird to talk about building from the hoverboard. I think it would be fine to just move quickly and
pass over water... even dangerous water.

Like a fast walker that can go over things. small things.

I think the graphic itself would look like its hovering just by putting a black shadow under it.

This would be a fun skill to see in action.

[Strato Incendus]

And the Surfer, which probably won't be happening anyway; I'd rather upgrade the Swimmer instead, and look to the Hoverboarder as a "can cross water" skill.

Didn't they tell Marty McFly in "Back to the Future" that the Hoverboards don't work above water?

But in all seriousness, I agree the Hoverboarder should be able to cross water objects. And yes, of course that would eliminate any and all need for the Surfer. The Surfer is nested within the Hoverboarder, because the Hoverboarder could do everything the Surfer can, and then some.

I'm probably more in favour of semi-permanent or non-permanent for the Hoverboarder, and semi-permanent for the Runner (it definitely feels like a Walker should cancel a Runner, not turn them).

Yes, I agree that Walker cancelling Runner seems more intuitive. And that would fix the Runner as a non-permanent skill, since it's not possible to unassign any other permanent skills, like Climber / Floater etc., by assigning a Walker to that lemming.

Then again, at this point, it sounds like the Runner won't be happening to begin with, so we won't have to worry about it anymore?
The Hoverboarder, I agree, should be a semi-permanent skill.

I agree for the most part, but if we allow construction skills then it feels wierd to disallow destruction skills, all of which would make much less sense with a Hoverboarder. What do others think about this?

If the hoverboard is terrain, then ranged skills (both destructive and constructive) would work from the top of the hoverboard: A lemming could stand on it and throw a spear, a grenade, or shoot a laser.

Then again, I do agree with the potential danger of redundancy with the Spearer, if the hoverboard is also terrain.
Therefore, I can see the hoverboard being a non-solid object, much like the Floater's or Glider's parachute.

For comparison, the Ballooner's balloon is kind of in between - since lemmings can't land on top of the balloon, but the balloon can pop when hitting solid terrain.

[jkapp76]

I like everything about this, but the Flying Carpet seems equally a good choice for all this.

The Hoverboard is cool and modern.
The Flying Carpet is cool and ancient. (and already an established L2 skill)

Strato saying hoverboards can't cross water in back to the future was a good shout.

[Strato Incendus]

Just out of curiosity: How fast is the Magic Carpet, compared to the Runner, in Lemmings 2: The Tribes?

[jkapp76]

Which is faster you ask?

Let's race!

[WillLem]

Didn't they tell Marty McFly in "Back to the Future" that the Hoverboards don't work above water?

"Unless you got power!"

We got power

If the hoverboard is terrain

Let's rule this out, we want to keep things as simple as possible.

ranged skills (both destructive and constructive) would work from the top of the hoverboard: A lemming could stand on it and throw a spear, a grenade, or shoot a laser.

I'll probably throw skill interaction out to a vote when the time comes. Let's start with increased speed, slightly elevated position, and extended jump range, and add other skill interactions as and if they feel right.

I like everything about this, but the Flying Carpet seems equally a good choice for all this.

I probably prefer Hoverboard tbh. As well as being potentially easier to animate, "Hoverboarder" is a snappier skill title than "Flying Carpeter" or even just "Carpeter". Also, the extended jump range doesn't feel quite right for the Flying Carpet.

Happy to put it out to a vote, though, if it ends up being a purely cosmetic thing.

[Strato Incendus]

You're right, the Magic Carpet doesn't feel like it would need to jump in the first place - it could just fly anywhere.

So I agree, let's stick with the (non-terrain) Hoverboarder. Especially as a more versatile version of the Runner, I also agree the Runner-like features are the ones we should start with.
Everything else would just be a potential bonus.

[WillLem]

OK, so I've made a start with the Hoverboarder, and it's nowhere near as simple as I originally thought it would be - and I don't mean programming-wise, I mean conceptually!

The main concerns I'm running into with it (no pun indended) are to do with assignability, and permanent-ness (or not).

The code itself is relatively straightforward, except that we're doing something with the Hoverboarder that hasn't been done yet, namely a semi-permanent skill. That is, the skill needs to exist in the permanent skill set in order for it to replace the Walker action wherever it would otherwise take place, however it also needs to take immediate effect and cancel other actions, whilst being cancellable itself. If cancellable, then perhaps all skill-cancelling actions (such as Builder, Basher, Ballooner) should also cancel the state? If only cancellable with Walker, then...why? And, if not cancellable, then it's a permanent skill.

Then, there's the assignability in general. At the moment, movement-based skills, permanent skills, explosion-based skills and the Cloner can all be assigned, but nothing else can - I'm not 100% sure how I feel about that. I think if we do go ahead with "other skills can cancel the Hoverboarder", then we can allow pretty much anything to be assignable. Otherwise, we need to be a bit more careful.

Here's a demo video showing the Hoverboarder as it is now. Note that the sound is a placeholder, and it is in fact possible to play the sound continuously by cueing it on a particular frame, and then making the sound the exact length it needs to be to loop back to that frame. But, it's not as easy to then stop the sound, so it will need to be kept relatively short anyway. I'll worry about that if we end up keeping this skill (at the moment, I'm about 50/50 on it).

Some questions:

1) Should Hoverboarders Climb/Slide when Jumping against a wall (assuming they're also Climbers/Sliders)?

I think that not transitioning to Climber/Slider when Jumping against a wall makes more sense, due to the skill's speed and movement. But, I don't feel too strongly about it. Also, its Jumper interaction (and even its Ascender interaction) will probably need completely new sprites as well as their own "larger-jump" method - this is on its way, if we decide to go ahead.

2) Should they descend more quickly, or steeply, when exiting a platform? The movement is currently similar to that of the Glider...

3) Should it be
   (a) cancellable with all skill-cancelling actions (Shimmiers, Bashers, Builders, Ballooners, Walkers)? Note that Jumpers won't count here - it's a given that the Jumper will be integrated into the Hoverboarder's overall action
   (b) cancellable only with Walkers? If so, why?
   (c) permanent, non-cancellable skill? If so, then it would become the first permanent skill in SLX that takes immediate effect.

4) What do you think, generally? Does it seem too OP? Does it "fit in" with the other skills and the game in general?

Everything is up for grabs at the moment; I don't feel too strongly either way about a lot of this, and I'm not as keen on this as I have been on the Ballooner whilst developing that skill. So, now's the time to make suggestions if you have any!

[Strato Incendus]

Great job, WillLem!

Using the Blocker as a sprite for standing on top of the board might indeed be a good starting point - much like the Disarmer used to look like a Digger for the longest time, and the Platformer looked exactly like the Builder.

1) Should Hoverboarders Climb/Slide when Jumping against a wall (assuming they're also Climbers/Sliders)?

Keeping in mind that the Hoverboarder is planned to be our Runner replacement, how does a Runner behave in Lemmings 2: The Tribes when jumping against a wall, if that Runner is also a Climber or Slider?

With Jumpers and Runners also existing in Lix, how do Runners in Lix behave when they jump against a wall, in case they're also Climbers?

I do agree that not transitioning to Climber / Slider does seem to make sense flavour-wise; however, there's also the game mechanics perspective, and if the Runner turns into a Climber or Slider, perhaps the Hoverboarder should do so, too. Especially if the Runner / Hoverboarder is used to go ahead of the crowd, which probably sends him on a more parkour-like path. In such cases, the ability to climb and slide might be vital for the solution.

Transitioning to a Climber or Slider should probably make the lemming lose the hoverboard, of course. Meaning, once they stop climbing or sliding, the lemming won't have a hoverboard anymore, but will continue walking normally. Flavour-wise, the lemming would drop his hoverboard so that he can hold on to the wall instead.

2) Should they descend more quickly, or steeply, when exiting a platform? The movement is currently similar to that of the Glider...

I'm fine with the angle, I'm just wondering whether this actually breaks falls of any height? It looks like it at the moment, but perhaps that's because the lemming in the video is also a Glider?
If the Runner jumps from a certain height, he will certainly still be able to splat. This of course makes less sense with the Hoverboarder, conceptually - it would make more sense with a Skateboarder, though.

3) Should it be
   (a) cancellable with all skill-cancelling actions (Shimmiers, Bashers, Builders, Ballooners, Walkers)? Note that Jumpers won't count here - it's a given that the Jumper will be integrated into the Hoverboarder's overall action
   (b) cancellable only with Walkers? If so, why?
   (c) permanent, non-cancellable skill? If so, then it would become the first permanent skill in SLX that takes immediate effect.

a) would make the most sense to me
b) seems arbitary
c) would make it more similar to the Runner, which does remain a permanent property of the lemming (which might become less of a problem with skill deassigner objects; in L2, it can certainly increase execution difficulty at some points, if a lemming you had to turn into a Runner at an earlier point in the level has to perform some more precise action near the end)

The difference is of course that running, from a flavour perspective, doesn't require the lemming to have access to any tools. Therefore, a Shimmier can logically transition back to running, once there is ground under his feet again. But where would a Shimmier place the hoverboard in the meantime? (Granted, probably in the same place where lemmings also stow away their parachutes... )

4) What do you think, generally? Does it seem too OP? Does it "fit in" with the other skills and the game in general?

The part where it seems to break falls of any height (see above) is what looks OP to me - it also makes the skill conceptually more similar to a Glider (we've already discussed the overlap with the Magic Carpet before).

As said above, perhaps this is where the conceptual difference between a hoverboard and a skateboard becomes vital.

The original idea for a Skateboarder skill on my part was inspired by Speedy Eggbert, who can also jump further with the board if he gains some speed, and can ignore (=destroy) one-use traps by skating over them. The difference is that there is no splat height in Speedy Eggbert - you can fall as far as you want. So while splat height would make more sense with a skateboard than with a hoverboard, the game that inspired the Skateboarder in the first place doesn't actually feature any lethal falls itself.



Finally, I'm uncertain about the horizontal moving speed. In the video, at least to me, the Hoverboarder still seems slower than the Runner? But I might be mistaken.

[WillLem]

how does a Runner behave in Lemmings 2: The Tribes when jumping against a wall, if that Runner is also a Climber or Slider?
---
With Jumpers and Runners also existing in Lix, how do Runners in Lix behave when they jump against a wall, in case they're also Climbers?

In both L2 and Lix, Climbers stick to the wall (Lixes do so with a nice "squelch" sound!), then proceed to climb.

However, this probably makes me think: we should do something else with SLX. Neither L2 nor Lix allow wall-jumping, which I was surprised to discover. So, we don't necessarily have to follow existing patterns.

if the Runner turns into a Climber or Slider, perhaps the Hoverboarder should do so, too

Why?

Especially if the Runner / Hoverboarder is used to go ahead of the crowd, which probably sends him on a more parkour-like path

In this case, I'd probably say - let's just have done with it and have Runner instead of Hoverboarder.

Transitioning to a Climber or Slider should probably make the lemming lose the hoverboard, of course. Meaning, once they stop climbing or sliding, the lemming won't have a hoverboard anymore, but will continue walking normally

Interesting. If we go with "most or all skill actions cancel the Hoverboarder", this would certainly make more sense. The Hoverboarder, then, becomes more like the Surfer or Kayaker - a short/single-use skill that can be used to get a lem quickly from A to B. Quite honestly, my current instinct here says "don't bother, go with the Runner instead and make it permanent." But, there may actually be more to gain by having a more dynamic and versatile* single-use skill, so... decisions!

*Hoverboarder can cross water, and if we make it single-use and cancellable, then the "off-ground Builder" seems that bit more likely to happen.

I'm fine with the angle, I'm just wondering whether this actually breaks falls of any height?

Yes, at present the Hoverboarder never transitions to Faller, and so no height is a threat. If we keep Hoverboarder, this will most likely remain the case, but I might make the angle steeper and the drop speed a bit faster so it's less comparable to the Glider.

If the Runner jumps from a certain height, he will certainly still be able to splat

Agreed, if we go with Runner, then falls are a threat again.

a) would make the most sense to me
b) seems arbitary
c) would make it more similar to the Runner, which does remain a permanent property of the lemming (which might become less of a problem with skill deassigner objects; in L2, it can certainly increase execution difficulty at some points, if a lemming you had to turn into a Runner at an earlier point in the level has to perform some more precise action near the end)

Agreed on all points.

Hoverboarder, then, should probably not be a permanent skill, and instead be a single action akin to the Shimmier, which can be cancelled by most skills and which does result in the lem Climbing when they meet a wall (but probably not Sliding if they meet an edge - they should probably still fly off)

If we want permanence to be a thing with this skill, then Runner seems the better flavour.

Finally, I'm uncertain about the horizontal moving speed. In the video, at least to me, the Hoverboarder still seems slower than the Runner? But I might be mistaken.

I've doubled the distance a lem covers in the same time. Tripling it might be too much, especially since it's probably that the Hoverboarding action i]seems[/i] slower because there is less movement in the actual sprite.



After reading Strato's comments and giving it some more thought, my current feeling is that the semi-permanent thing probably isn't a good idea anyway (if you think semi-permanent could work, please do speak up, because it probably won't happen unless the idea gets some support). So, the question really becomes:

Do we want this to be a permanent skill, or a single-use skill?

[Strato Incendus]

If we think of the application of the Hoverboarder as a Surfer (i.e., a one-time Swimmer), then it also shouldn't be a permanent skill that allows to survive all falls.
Rather, to the extent that it resembles a Glider when falling, the Hoverboarder could be a "one-time Floater / Glider", too.

Much like a Shimmier can only get you across a water pond once (provided there is a ceiling above it), the Hoverboarder would only allow you to

• cross a water / fire object once (single-use Kayaker / Surfer application)
• survive a fall once (single-use Floater / Glider application)
• get the lemming ahead of the crowd, extending Jumper arcs in the process, due to the increased speed (Runner application)

The crucial question here is whether the Hoverboarder would then consequently also be cancelled after having performed a single jump.
As far as I currently understand it, this will be the exception? Meaning, a single Hoverboarder could perform multiple jumps (=the Jumper would be the only skill that doesn't cancel the Hoverboarder), until he is assigned some other skill that does result in the Hoverboarder being cancelled.

Hoverboarder, then, should probably not be a permanent skill, and instead be a single action akin to the Shimmier, which can be cancelled by most skills and which does result in the lem Climbing when they meet a wall (but probably not Sliding if they meet an edge - they should probably still fly off)

See above, I also see the Shimmier as the closest comparison right now.
And yes, "flying off" the edge is the similarity to the Runner, which we would need in order to extend the jumps.

Basically, a Hoverboarder that's also a Slider never gets the opportunity to hold on to the edge, because, due to the hoverboard, he's actually floating above the edge already.
The Slider only holds on to an edge or a corner when transitioning to that state from Walker, Shimmier, or Climber.

[Floyd Brannon]

About being the only semi-permanent skill. You could make this a pick-up skill only. Then the lemming must pick up the board to fly on it. and only the lemming that grabs it can fly?

I like the runner better in every way, except the ability to hover over dangerous water. (like a kayaker) I think simpler is better. The hoverboarder should fall to his death after an extended jump, just like gravity and velocity would do.
I like it being permanent, but I also think many other skills should permanently cancel it. Just not jumpers.

I saw the hoverboard video. It looks better and more usable than I would have expected.

[Strato Incendus]

The pickup-skill only idea would make it more similar to Speedy Eggbert again. For NeoLemmix / SuperLemmix, though, it woudl be a first.
This is not Lemmings Chronicles / An All New World of Lemmings, where all skills except movement skills are pickups.

The use for crossing water objects with a Hoverboarder would be higher in SuperLemmix, since we now also have lava / acid / poison - water objects that Swimmers cannot cross, but a skill that can hover over the trigger area without ever touching it can.

[WillLem]

If we think of the application of the Hoverboarder as a Surfer (i.e., a one-time Swimmer)

I don't think the Hoverboarder should be relegated to a one-time Swimmer - it's unlikely that the Surfer will be implemented due to this limitation, so I'm hesitant to place it onto the Hoverboarder.

Rather, to the extent that it resembles a Glider when falling, the Hoverboarder could be a "one-time Floater / Glider", too

It would make sense for the Hoverboarder to survive one fall, but no falls thereafter. What's the reason for this limitation? And, what if the first fall is much larger than the second?

I think at this point I should rule out any notions of single-use actions for this skill, if only from a POV of personal preference. I don't mind the Hoverboarder being non-permanent, but its effect should be continuous, and predictable, until the action is finished.

Meanwhile, there does need to be something besides player-driven-cancelling which terminates the skill's effect - in the same way that Shimmiers stop when there is no more Shimmyable terrain. The problem with the Hoverboarder is that there is nothing that would obviously stop the skill, other than maybe crashing into a wall? That could work...

The crucial question here is whether the Hoverboarder would then consequently also be cancelled after having performed a single jump. As far as I currently understand it, this will be the exception?

I imagine that the Hoverboarder/Runner will have an extended jump range, and the action will continue thereafter. Since SLX will eventually be getting the Trampolene, it's necessary to implement the Super-Jump, which will take place when a lem lands on a Trampolene from a great height; the Hoverboarder/Runner would use this same action.

a Hoverboarder that's also a Slider never gets the opportunity to hold on to the edge, because, due to the hoverboard, he's actually floating above the edge already

I guess this can be seen as a caveat of the increased speed - it's one of the reasons I don't think construction or destruction skills should be assignable - the lem is simply moving too fast to perform them.

You could make this a pick-up skill only. Then the lemming must pick up the board to fly on it. and only the lemming that grabs it can fly?

Not a bad idea, actually. I was thinking the same thing for the SuperLem.

The hoverboarder should fall to his death after an extended jump, just like gravity and velocity would do.

This seems contractictory to the premise of a "Hoverboard", which would surely cushion the lem's fall. Unfortunately, we don't really have any real-world examples, and even Back To The Future Part II doesn't show what would happen if hoverboarding down from a height. However, if we assume that the hoverboards as depicted in the film use the same technology as flying cars, then they probably would descend gradually, particurly if they're able to take the weight of two full-grown adults (BTTF Part III shows this in action).

The use for crossing water objects with a Hoverboarder would be higher in SuperLemmix, since we now also have lava / acid / poison - water objects that Swimmers cannot cross, but a skill that can hover over the trigger area without ever touching it can.

Yes, exactly. This is the main reason I haven't reverted to the Runner.



OK, let's make some decisions regarding the Hoverboarder.

The skill shouldn't be permanent. That feels right, especially since it's quite overpowered (ignores water, traps, and falls).

The skill should be cancellable by more than just the Walker - OK, but which other skills? Shimmier is an easy yes, Jumpers we've decided should be integrated into the action itself, explosion-based skills are obvious, but most other skills honestly don't feel quite right. Speaking of which...

I think we should rule out any action that can't begin unless there is terrain under the lem's feet - so that would be all destruction and construction skills. We can't count the hoverboard as terrain, since - by Lemmings-world-logic, it would no longer be there once the new action has started.

And, I'd like to rule out single-use actions for the Hoverboarder. Any of its properties (fall-surviving, water-crossing, etc) should be active throughout the skill's duration; let's keep it simple.



Next question, then:

Since it's not permanent, we need some in-game logic that auto-cancels the skill. I propose hitting a wall; since the lem approaches at speed, they bounce away and fall off the board (but stay facing the same way). Then, they get up and do whatever they would do when reaching the wall as a Walker. So, effectively, we get our Climber transition back.

Thoughts?

[Strato Incendus]

I like the "crashing into a wall and transitioning into a Climber / Slider" bit!

I don't think the Hoverboarder should be relegated to a one-time Swimmer - it's unlikely that the Surfer will be implemented due to this limitation, so I'm hesitant to place it onto the Hoverboarder.

To be clear here: I didn't want to "relegate" the Hoverboarder to just that; rather, I was pointing out that being a one-time stand in for various permanent skills (swimmers, floaters, and gliders) is one of several possible uses the Hoverboarder can fulfil. Of course, it still also acts as a runner / jumper extender, and as a skill that can circumvent traps (including fire traps).