[SUG] Return of the Stoner?

[jkapp76]

This is a discussion to see how users feel about returning the Stoner to Super Lemmix.

Personally I see nothing but gain with bringing these guys back. We have other skills that are similar, like fencer/laserer. We'd just have freezer/stoner going forward.
As someone who's been converting level packs to SLX I can say the stoner is always the biggest obstacle with changing the packs over for me. Adding the stoner back will make conversion faster and easier and ease the minds of those considering converting their packs. Many levels requiring the stoner/stacker interaction can't be replicated; the freezer/laserer will often laser far too much and the fencer won't create a step from the freezer block.

Some level packs aim for a creepy vibe, (like the zombie pack I've been converting,) and the stoner adds a nice element to those levels with the creepy and sacrificed lemmings.

I will say I generally prefer the freezer. It's more usable and friendlier-looking. But I believe the stoner has its place here.

[Crane]

I second this - there are a few subtle differences between the Stoner and Freezer so that one can't easily be replaced with the other.  One thing is that you can't do the Stacker/Stoner trick to make a large step, nor can a Miner clear an ice block on flat ground with a single swing.  The fact that the Stoner is sacrificial too adds an element of strategy too, while the Freezer acts closer to a Blocker than a Stoner.  I say keep both, like how both the Bomber and Timebomber are available.

[Floyd Brannon]

I can see how the stoner was cut. it's replaced in many ways by the new freezer, but not in every way.
In some sense I like the skills set to be neat and smaller, but i think the stoner adds enough to deserve
a comeback.
Level builders can always choose not to use a certain skill. But it's nice to have plenty of tools in the toolbox.
I've been trying to make levels and tend to make the level first then figure out how to win it. It's best to have
more skills to create a good method of play. And therefore, a good skillset.

I say bring the stoner back. Keep the freezer though. And keep the fencer and bomber too. They all family.

[kaywhyn]

Jeremy has a really good point. Even though I was one of several who said that the stoner could go, no questions asked, retaining the skill would make it much easier to convert packs over, and as some have pointed out there are some mechanics that don't work as well when it's replaced with the freezer. If anything, the freezer is best suited to fresh and newly created levels instead of existing levels in existing level packs and shaking that world up. If restoring the stoner, then there will definitely be a need for an introduction level illustrating the mechanics differences between that and the freezer.

Along with this, consider bringing back slowfreeze, which is essentially assigning a stoner countdown to lemmings but in the form of an object, as well as radiation (same as slowfreeze except the lemming turns into a bomber instead). Now, you could just bring back the stoner skill with slowfreeze only, but honestly it would feel strange that the only way to do so is in the form of an object instead of being able to assign the stoner skill whenever you like. Even then, I don't ever recall there being levels featuring both slowfreeze and the stoner skill in the same level together, but it's very possible that I might be remembering wrong. Same thing with radiation and the bomber skill, the difference being the former puts a countdown timer and then the lemming explodes when it expires. Finally, any levels that featured slowfreeze didn't convert correctly unless I took them out first before saving and then cleansing. Hence, having slowfreeze restored would also make levels featuring them easier to convert and less of a hassle. The ones that had radiation had no problems converting.

As for radiation and slowfreeze, I didn't mind them at all. I saw and have played plenty of excellent puzzles featuring them from both Strato and Gigalems' packs. Not to mention that it would also be possible to clone timed bombers from radiation in addition to those assigned the timed bomber skill Up to you, of course WillLem    

[Proxima]

I can see where everyone is coming from here, but don't forget that SuperLemmix is its own engine and doesn't have any obligation to support NeoLemmix packs. The core identities of the two engines are very different: NL encourages players to make use of framestepping and fine control, and encourages developers to allow for the range of tools that are available. SLX encourages "classic mode" and a playstyle based on that of the original games.

Of course, given that SLX can read NL levels, I'm not surprised there has been a rush to port content over. But I think there is a very real risk that SLX will be swamped with these ports and struggle to establish its own identity, possibly leading to the two engines re-merging in the future.

My suggestion to WillLem would be to call a halt to new content for now and encourage more testing of levels to make sure that all packs available on the SLX board can be completed in Classic Mode.

[IchoTolot]

I would also advice to specifically make packs suited for SuperLemmix core philosophies.

Just trying to port over NL packs that were made with NL's philosophy in mind just results in mostly inferior versions.

Giving SLX its own identity is worth much more than trying to port over everything.

[Floyd Brannon]

That's the thing. We all want a little bit of everything. We want to play a few old packs, and play a few new packs too. I even like
having some of the new features in the older packs. The possibility of allowing slow-freeze and radiation would bring back some
GREAT levels that are nearly forgotten.

For the first time having ALL of these things feels within our grasp. And certainly a few of these things will be and have been already.

Reviving long-gone radiation packs and NL packs would be a great service, but porting old packs aside, I still find the stoner worth
bringing back. The less skills I have available the more builder-heavy my own levels get and unique skills help with this.

[IchoTolot]

That's the thing. We all want a little bit of everything. We want to play a few old packs, and play a few new packs too. I even like
having some of the new features in the older packs. The possibility of allowing slow-freeze and radiation would bring back some
GREAT levels that are nearly forgotten.

For the first time having ALL of these things feels within our grasp. And certainly a few of these things will be and have been already.

Reviving long-gone radiation packs and NL packs would be a great service, but porting old packs aside, I still find the stoner worth
bringing back. The less skills I have available the more builder-heavy my levels get.

I think then the engine still has a little crisis on exactly what it wants to be!
Also I don't know if "We all want a little bit of everything" really speaks for all SLX folks.

The old NL packs are created with the helper tools and NL's philosophy in mind. A conversion would be a downgrade in that regard and at that point, why not stay with the original?
SLX does not have an advantage there and is not needed for that purpose. For the originals NL would be superior in most cases.

New packs relying on new features and slow-freeze and radiation that build on SLX's return to execution-based gameplay would make sense on the other hand and fills a niesch that is not covered yet by other engines.
If an engine does not cater to a not yet satisfied niesch it will stand in direct competition.
With mostly relying on old NL packs that cater to puzzle-focused gamplay, SLX will lose in that area as people looking for that puzzle-focused gamplay most likely won't switch over.
As a result going for that open niesch makes much more sense.

Jack of all trades, master of none is also a VERY dangerous design philosophy. As then you will be losing in each aspect to something else.

I am not making a big statement about the stoner though, but simply adding it for conversion purposes I would call a flawed idea - I would suggest maybe making an extra "where do you want to go with SLX" topic though and see where you all stand!

[kaywhyn]

In case there was any doubt, I'm going to make it clear right now that I'm not advocating for existing level packs to be ported over to SLX in any way. I'm merely providing my thoughts, nothing more. I have absolutely no interest in doing so, especially as checking to make sure everything is all right when doing so is just too much for me. I've only been aiding Jeremy in the process of doing the cleansing and then I leave the rest up to him, as again I just don't have the time to investigate and check everything and see why some don't convert properly.

It's something that I been meaning to bring up, but I'm kind of disoriented myself right now and hence forgot to. It's just like Icho said, and I agree completely, leave the NL packs be. There's absolutely no requirement or need to port them over to SLX or to worry about whether or not they will work properly in SLX, as breakage is expected and hence adapting the levels so that they work under SLX will be required for those levels anyway. Thus, I don't understand why there is a need or rush to port everything over to SLX ASAP. In Jeremy's case, I understand why he's doing so, but I've also told him I have no interest in doing any porting over of packs to SLX, at least at the moment, but mostly not ever.

In short, if I ever want to return to execution-based engines or have timed bombers, I always have Lemmini/SuperLemmini for that! Yes, SLX has this with classic mode, but I don't feel the need to switch to SLX for that. Same thing with older versions of the NL player if I ever want to play packs with the features that have been culled for New Formats NL. Even then, I have absolutely no problems with SLX existing alongside all the other engines available. I just won't be spending too much or possibly not any time with it to test features, for example. I'm pretty content with NL, and this is coming from someone who was a heavy Lemmini/SuperLemmini user for years before I decided to try out NL

[Turrican]

But about the discussion about the need to be obliged to use the Classic mode and it's philosophy as the basis for our designs : An engine can attract different players/designers for different reasons.

So , what if someone is not interested at all on the Classic mode , but they are very interested on the Spearer and Grenader skills , for example , and they want to use them a lot for the pack they will make, but they want their pack , to contain , a lot of very technical and demanding puzzles, that will not be possible on the Classic mode at all?

[WillLem]

Another juicy one! Nice to see

OK, lots to reply to here, so I'll be as concise as I can. I'm pretty sure I know how I feel about this, but there are some very good points being made here on both sides.

We have other skills that are similar, like fencer/laserer.

I'm seriously considering culling the Fencer for just this reason, but... it probably won't happen for a while, and will be very much dependent on what sort of new made-for-SLX content gets released over the next year or so.

I can say the stoner is always the biggest obstacle with changing the packs over for me. Adding the stoner back will make conversion faster and easier

Let's discuss the finer points of NeoLemmix backwards-compatibility here. Meanwhile, if there is a good reason to bring back the Stoner for new content which sits well with SuperLemmix's feature set, then that's a better angle to come at it from.

Many levels requiring the stoner/stacker interaction can't be replicated; the freezer/laserer will often laser far too much and the fencer won't create a step in the freezer block.

One thing is that you can't do the Stacker/Stoner trick to make a large step

All of these are fiddly, finicky interactions which require framestepping to execute. I'm glad SuperLemmix makes this sort of thing difficult or impossible, because it means that hopefully we'll see less of it going forward!

Some level packs aim for a creepy vibe ... and the stoner adds a nice element to those levels

Good point here, the Stoner does play better into a spookier aesthetic. The Kill All Zombies talisman in SLX invites zombie/death-themed levels, so... yes, I can see how the Stoner could be a good fit in this regard.

nor can a Miner clear an ice block on flat ground with a single swing

Use a Stacker instead? Or, create a level based on the fact that the Miner alone can't clear it?

Incidentally, the Miner can be used to rescue the Frozen lem with a single swing

The fact that the Stoner is sacrificial too adds an element of strategy too

Can you elaborate on this? Yes, it's sacrificial, but how does that play into "strategy"? Either the skill needs to be used, or it doesn't. Whether or not it costs a lem is not necessarily strategy-related.

it's nice to have plenty of tools in the toolbox.

There does come a point where it just feels like bloat, though, and it's diminishing returns. Sometimes, being more limited can make creativity easier.

Having rattled off that particular cliche though, I do generally agree that more is better. The Stoner can be considered for a comeback, but I'd need to see better reasons than "existing content" and "it's better to have it and not need it".

as some have pointed out there are some mechanics that don't work as well when it's replaced with the freezer

I'm glad you said this, because it's helped me to realise one of the things that's irking me a little bit in this topic: the Freezer, I would assert, ought no longer to be seen as a "replacement" for the Stoner; it's already very much evolved into a skill in its own right.

Some reasons: the shape is totally different and much less fiddly to work with, it's non-sacrificial and yet it does take the lem somewhat out of action in a similar way to the Blocker (except it can be stopped in mid-air, unlike the Blocker), it's zombie-proof, and - one of the things I'm proudest of with the latest update - it can be used to stop a Timebomber in midair (no other skill can do this)! Furthermore, since it can be assigned in midair, it's another way to get a lem down from a height, providing it can later be rescued.

There are some similarities to the Stoner, though - it can be used to nudge Swimmers downwards (an update that was made, incidentally, not because it broke an existing level, but because it improves the skill generally), and it is a relatively immediate "Blocker"-type skill that can't be climbed over. There's more to the Freezer than that, though, and to be honest I'm excited to see what kind of levels might be created that make use of its surprising versatility.

If anything, the freezer is best suited to fresh and newly created levels instead of existing levels in existing level packs and shaking that world up

Yes, this. Excellently put

radiation and slowfreeze

I'm not too familiar with these features to be honest...?

NL encourages players to make use of framestepping and fine control, and encourages developers to allow for the range of tools that are available. SLX encourages "classic mode" and a playstyle based on that of the original games.
...
My suggestion to WillLem would be to call a halt to new content for now and encourage more testing of levels to make sure that all packs available on the SLX board can be completed in Classic Mode.

This is pretty much exactly my feeling here. If people want to port NL content over, I won't stand in the way, but nor will I go out of my way to support it and certainly won't make significant changes in SLX to make sure it works.

And yes, I strongly advocate the notion that if a level can't be played and completed in Classic Mode, it's not a good fit for SuperLemmix. For the upcoming 2.4 release, the DMA levels have all had a "Play in Classic Mode" talisman added to them, and I'd keenly encourage designers to make use of this feature in their own levels.

I would also advice to specifically make packs suited for SuperLemmix core philosophies.
...
Giving SLX its own identity is worth much more than trying to port over everything.

Always nice to be agreeing with Icho after our many disagreements over the years!

Yes, we need to be clear on this: NL levels are made for NL - they can be more puzzle-focused not only because the player tools allow for this, but also because their use is actively encouraged in order to make more obscure and challenging level solutions possible.

SuperLemmix has not entirely turned away from this, either - the same tools are still available (apart from projection shadows, I always thought that was taking the "picture puzzle" thing way too far) - but, it makes more sense to lean into the unique feature set (Classic Mode, more execution-focused skills such as Grenader, Timebomber, Freezer), embrace SLX for what it is, and aim to make interesting levels which do not rely on the helper tools.

We want to play a few old packs, and play a few new packs too. I even like having some of the new features in the older packs.

Yes, this is mostly the reason why I would port any previous content over: either to remix it to include the new features, or to re-frame it in a "have a go at playing this pack in a more traditional style" package. Classic Mode and Timebombers allow very early packs such as GeoffLems and NepsterLems to be played almost exactly like L1, which is an exciting prospect.

SuperLemminiToo gets close to this experience, but still has framestepping and optional insta-bombers (the latter of which is actually the source of several large bugs which ended up putting me off the engine entirely).

The less skills I have available the more builder-heavy my own levels get and unique skills help with this.

There are currently 24 available skills. From a level design POV, I'd encourage you to have a play with what's there - you might be surprised at what's possible!

I am not making a big statement about the stoner though, but simply adding it for conversion purposes I would call a flawed idea - I would suggest maybe making an extra "where do you want to go with SLX" topic though and see where you all stand!

Not a bad idea, I think a few people on the forums might benefit from a more general discussion about where SLX is headed. It's already way more than I imagined it would be, so it's more than surpassed the "Will doing everything he's always wanted to do" phase of its development - discussion can absolutely be had about the engine's future, for sure.

I don't understand why there is a need or rush to port everything over to SLX ASAP

Agreed. I'm far more excited about seeing new levels than ports.

I'm guessing it's about having something to play in SuperLemmix whilst new content is thin on the ground, which I suppose is inevitable. Once 2.4 is released and stable, I'll likely get back to making level packs; new ones that explore SLX's features are very much needed.

In short, if I ever want to return to execution-based engines or have timed bombers, I always have Lemmini/SuperLemmini for that! Yes, SLX has this with classic mode

Classic Mode is way more than just "being like Lemmini" - it affects more aspects of the gameplay than you might think (if you haven't tried it yet), and is far closer to the experience of playing Lemmings on the Amiga than in Lemmini. Just sayin'

Also, you can rewind in SLX (even in Classic Mode), which you can't do in Lemmini. Rewind mode is designed with real-time play in mind, so it can't be used for making precision edits like with framestepping, but it allows a player to undo a mistake without having to replay from the start.

With that said, I'm fully expecting that it will take a while before SLX develops any sort of consistent "user-base", and that's mostly a good thing because it means we can develop it more fully before people start committing large amounts of content to it.

So , what if someone is not interested at all on the Classic mode , but they are very interested on the Spearer and Grenader skills , for example , and they want to use them a lot for the pack they will make, but they want their pack , to contain , a lot of very technical and demanding puzzles, that will not be possible on the Classic mode at all?

Excellent question. I'd say that of course such levels can be made for SuperLemmix, since the helper tools which make more precise and frame-perfect assignments possible do still exist on this engine (and will continue to do so).

However, so far every single level I've made requiring Grenaders and/or Spearers (admittedly, there haven't been many) can be played in Classic Mode. I would hope that "playable in Classic Mode and technically difficult" becomes something of a standard for the harder, more challenging levels to aim for.

And again - the moment a player has to rely on helper tools to complete the level, as opposed to use them for the sake of making gameplay easier, the level has crossed a line into "picture puzzle" territory, which SLX is aiming to turn away from (but not outright discourage or prevent).



As all good topics tend to do, this one kind of got away from itself a bit with the subject matter. I'd say that the following pretty much sums up where I'm currently at with bringing back the Stoner:

• I'm not outright against the idea of bringing the Stoner back, but I need better reasons than "existing content" and/or "it would be nice to have it even if we don't need it"
• Stoner skill applications that require framestepping to execute are, IMHO, reasons not to bring it back!
• It's more likely that I'd want to encourage a period of SLX-focused level creation and see where we're at after a certain amount of time has passed, before considering reinstating culled features
• SuperLemmix has the potential to develop its own unique identity and purpose, and we should seek to explore that potential as a community so that it can coexist with the other available engines as an interesting and compelling alternative - this is more important than rushing to make sure that every previous pack is playable
• With that said, I'm not going to discourage the porting of existing content (if only because it's good to have something to play whilst fresh content is in short supply), but nor am I going to do anything to actively support it unless it would improve SuperLemmix more generally

I hope that's fair. More than happy to discuss this further, the topic will stay open.

[Proxima]

radiation and slowfreeze

I'm not too familiar with these features to be honest...?

They were culled before you joined the forum. Radiation was an object that, if touched by a lemming, made them a bomber with a 9-second countdown; slowfreeze was the same for stoners.

[Crane]

I guess I only had an opinion on this because Lemmings Cranium was ported by a third party and some levels are impossible to complete as a result. Otherwise I don't really have an opinion on this - I have no counters to your points so I admit defeat in this debate.

[WillLem]

Radiation was an object that, if touched by a lemming, made them a bomber with a 9-second countdown; slowfreeze was the same for stoners.

I see. I guess this could be interesting, particularly if the object had a variable timer (set in the Editor).

I have no counters to your points so I admit defeat in this debate.

That's a shame, I love a good debate, and my intention was not to "defeat" anyone. I just want to make sure that the suggestion stands up to robust discussion before considering re-implementing the skill (which would be several hours of work for a feature I'm probably less than 10% sure about).

If you can add anything about sacrificial skills being more strategic, I'm genuinely interested to hear what you have to say about this. It's likely I'm just failing to see the strategic possibilities here, and this is more the sort of thing I'd be looking for as arguments in favour of the Stoner.

[kaywhyn]

I'm glad you said this, because it's helped me to realise one of the things that's irking me a little bit in this topic: the Freezer, I would assert, ought no longer to be seen as a "replacement" for the Stoner; it's already very much evolved into a skill in its own right.

Yea, and I'm glad that Icho reminded me of the whole NL packs weren't designed with SLX mechanics in mind and therefore it shouldn't be a worry about levels breaking, as that is to be expected. I totally meant to mention this as well but alas I forgot!

I'm not too familiar with these features to be honest...?

For examples, see Basic 8 and Basic 9 of Strato's Lemmicks, which are the levels that introduce radiation and slowfreeze, respectively. Similarly, check out Nostalgic 3 and Nostalgic 4 of the same pack.

Classic Mode is way more than just "being like Lemmini" - it affects more aspects of the gameplay than you might think (if you haven't tried it yet), and is far closer to the experience of playing Lemmings on the Amiga than in Lemmini. Just sayin'

To be fair, I didn't say that Lemmini/SL are like SLX, just that if I want to return to pure execution gameplay there are those engines I mentioned for that Lemmini lacks all of that, including rewind, while SL has framestepping but only in the forward direction. Also they have the advantage in that they appear to not suffer from any kind of lag or slowdown even in very huge levels

In any case, I'm not interested in SLX at the moment, nor do I think I will make a complete transition to it in the future, even after there are plenty of released content for it. I have plenty of Lemmings engines set up on my machine already as it is: Lemmini, SuperLemmini, SuperLemminiToo, Lemmix, CustLemmix, NL v1.43, NL v10.13.18, and NL v12.12.5. Like I already mentioned, I have no problems with SLX existing alongside all the other engines, just don't expect me to invest much time into playing with it


From reading WillLem's lengthy post, I will have to agree with him about not restoring the stoner skill. Again, a reminder that I was one of those who voted the stoner skill for removal, as admittedly I find it very hard to make really good puzzles with that skill. Thinking back to all the levels I have made, I believe I only have two levels that have the stoner skill. In the same way, the disarmer skill was another one I voted to remove, and again thinking back to my own levels I believe I have only one disarmer level, which goes back to LDC #22, the very first contest I entered! That means I have not made any other disarmer levels in the about 2.5 years since! Of course, I digress here, as that can be for its own topic

Needless to say, if NL levels don't work as intended in SLX because of the removal of the stoner skill, so be it. They weren't designed with SLX in mind anyway. Instead, the focus for SLX should be creating levels specifically tailored for that engine, not touch and worry about existing NL packs to port over to SLX and being concerned about breakage. There's already plenty of existing content as is, and there are plenty of options/engines to play the game on too.