[SUG][PLAYER] Option on how game should respond under certain fail conditions

[Crane]

I fear it might be too late for this suggestion.

I would like to propose a couple of options (using either radio buttons in a frame or combo boxes) in regards to how the player behaves when certain failure conditions are met:

Time over: (timer reaches 0:00)

• End level (traditional behaviour)
• Pause (you can resume if you want)
• Continue (current behaviour)

Only zombies left: (all regular and neutral lemmings are either dead or converted - doesn't apply if there are no zombies; level ends as normal in this case)

• End level (current behaviour)
• Pause (continue option unavailable... you cannot go past this frame)

I bring up the latter one especially because some levels where you have many zombies and few (or just one) regular lemming can get very annoying if you get your timing slightly off and a lemming gets converted.  For an example where this can get annoying, I suggest my level Perilous Parkour from the Level Design Contest #26 - at one point you have to jump from wall to wall while avoiding zombies that are falling from above - getting the timing slightly wrong immediately ends the level, where it would be better to instead step back a few frames and jump slightly earlier.  Also doubly annoying when you want to retry and press space to skip ahead 10 seconds, only for the level to end again because you tried to skip past where the lemming was converted.

For the default option on both, I would suggest Pause.

[Simon]

Interesting that game still exits ends on only zombies left. I thought that, by default, play would never end on failure. Didn't we push for this 1-2 years ago ...

Yes, by default, definitely freeze or continue when only zombies are left.

See also your 2020 topic on Options for Time-Up behaviour. I'd like both of these topics to lead to a single consistent solution in NL that fixes both.

-- Simon

[WillLem]

definitely freeze or continue when only zombies are left.

+1 for this. I'm currently trying to figure out how to stop the level from ending when only zombies remain. Continue would be better; the game freezing could look like a crash or error of some sort.

[Crane]

definitely freeze or continue when only zombies are left.

+1 for this. I'm currently trying to figure out how to stop the level from ending when only zombies remain. Continue would be better; the game freezing could look like a crash or error of some sort.

Well, how about this? If there only zombies left, it auto-nukes?  That way, the level eventually ends since it's impossible to make any further progress, but it also gives the player the chance to pause and rewind.  I wonder if the same should happen if you run out of time.  Granted, there is the question of what should happen with the nuke appearing in the replay list, since that is not desired (a special nuke that isn't added to the list?)

[Proxima]

I can see why auto-nuking on time up is tempting (and in fact, it's what Lix used to do), but it has an obvious problem: for the player, it feels unfair if the lemmings that get saved after the nuke has started don't count, but if they do count, that can be a headache to design around and isn't as "clean" as having a dead stop time limit.

[Simon]

what should happen with the nuke appearing in the replay list, since that is not desired (a special nuke that isn't added to the list?)

Special nuke, yes, in the sense that the game will nuke in additional situations other than when it reaches a nuke entry in the replay's input listing.

You can track statistics in the replay: You can track the time of this special nuking, or the time of last exiting. Such information can help decide whether playback is still synched. It merely shouldn't affect physics.

it feels unfair if the lemmings that get saved after the nuke has started don't count

I don't see how this applies here. The nuke in question merely activates when no savable lemmings remain, no? Do we have a zombie-to-savable-turning gadget?

-- Simon

[Proxima]

I don't see how this applies here. The nuke in question merely activates when no savable lemmings remain, no? Do we have a zombie-to-savable-turning gadget?

I was responding to Crane:

I wonder if the same should happen if you run out of time.

[Simon]

Right, nuking on timeout gives would give weird extra time to late lemmings.

-- Simon

[Crane]

The intention with the suggestion on auto-nuking on timeout is that any lemmings that wander into the exit during this time don't count.  It doesn't affect other times that you nuke, such as with levels that require the nuke as part of the solution.

[WillLem]

-1 for Autonuke in either case (zombies remain, time is up).

Although I can absolutely see why it's a good idea in terms of being able to auto-finish the level, it's my understanding that the goal here is to not exit play in either of these conditions.

For time up, draw a clock graphic over the exit, play the sound effect, let the timer display purple as it currently does.

For zombies remain (but no regulars or neutrals remain), display a red "0" for the lems-in-level count but let play continue. If the red "0" doesn't make it clear enough that no more lems can be saved, maybe display a graphic across the top of the level with a picture of a zombie lem and some text that says "only zombies remain, nuke or esc to exit."

Or, I seem to remember somewhere that panel text could display this message, and it would flash on and off to alert the player. That's also a good idea.

[Dullstar]

First relevant point: Was the save requirement met?
This factor may very well affect the desired behavior! Generally, we don't want to have to manually end completed levels, but having the option can be nice when trying to optimize. We're not always trying to optimize, and probably not trying to optimize most of the time, so while we want to be able to accommodate this use case, the defaults should probably assume the player would like to move on when the level was successfully cleared.



Obvious end states (regardless of save progress):

There are no lemmings remaining.
There is no time left.
Only zombies remain.
All remaining lemmings are blockers with no way to free them (note: this specific case may be a niche for auto-nuke since they don't move and it's the only possible move).


Potential other case to consider (trivially-detectable soft-locks):

Too many lemmings have been lost.



Further thoughts:
In general, when one of these end cases is reached, if the save requirement has been met, the level should end unless the player explicitly chooses otherwise in the settings menu; if not, gameplay should pause or continue (or have an option), see specifics. Since we have the option to rewind, having the level forcibly restarted is no longer the obvious choice it once was. For clarity: the instant the save requirement is met is NOT an end state and should NOT auto-end; it's merely a milestone that affects what behavior we want to see when the level would end through other means.

When we have the option to pause, continue, or end the game: I think the player should have the option which one to prefer. If they prefer continuing, specific cases should force pausing (specifically, when physics can no longer meaningfully advance; i.e. the physics are unchanging).

There are no lemmings remaining. Should probably block further physics updates to reduce rewinding; there's no benefit to allowing the game to progress in this state. But, not ending the level means that you can rewind from this state, unlike the current behavior where this case always ends the level.

There is no time left. I think it's reasonable to want to pause or continue in this case. Should probably be an option. May want to consider combining with the other "soft-locking" case, where the save requirement can't be met due to losses.

Only zombies remain. If you pause in this scenario, there IS a reason to want to resume, as you may wish to watch the movement patterns of the zombies.

All remaining lemmings are blockers with no way to free them. I'd actually say this specific case should result in an auto-nuke and then proceed to the case There are no lemmings remaining to determine further behavior. No way to free the blockers = no walkers or bombers remaining. We want to auto-nuke since technically, the nuke could free one of the blockers which probably won't get it to the exit, but in theory it could.

Too many lemmings have been lost. It may be worth having an option for, and it's arguably a similar case to time up. Still, though, I think there's arguably a major reason we might explicitly not want to pause in this situation even when we would want to pause in other conditions: replay insert mode. When you have stuff happening in multiple spots on the map, sometimes it's convenient to just completely ignore all but one part of it, do what you need to do there, rewind and replay insert.