[DISC] SuperLemmix Discussion Topic

[WillLem]

Thanks for your comment Dullstar. I've thought about going "full retro" with it, but tbh that would actually be way more work than you'd think for very little (if any) gain. NeoLemmix's coding is already so far down the "modern" route than it would mean stripping out enormous chunks of code and basically just ending up with "Lemmix, but a bit better" which doesn't seem worth my time and effort tbh.

I think maybe I've conveyed the wrong idea about what I'm going for here, so I'll clarify.

I'd have to question if it makes sense to appease both crowds with this engine

I'd say it definitely does. I don't want to alienate half of the possible user base for the sake of a few controversial features.

Far better to allow the player more customisability over their own personal experience (which is what this engine is really about, beneath the ostensible "Classic" or "Retro" aesthetics.) I'd like the player to be able to cherry pick which of the assists they'd like and tailor it to their own preferences, or simply hit the "Classic Mode" button, which will automatically disable everything but the bare basics.

Perhaps fully embrace this engine's difference in philosophy and then design a cohesive experience around that

Like I said, the philosophy is less about forcing players to play a certain way and more about giving them the choice. It seems a waste of time to make what will essentially just be another Lemmini. We all know that this engine is highly unpopular. It's always been my belief that the best and most-used engine on the Forums should offer the player as many options as possible, rather than enforce any sort of "player philosophy".

If anything, SuperLemmix is about doing away with that type of thing altogether, in a perhaps wayward but valiant attempt to cater to everyone.

With that said, I'll definitely take on board your comments regarding the features themselves, in particular:

As part of this, rather than allowing levels to disable player assist features, I think it would be better for you to decide which player assist features this engine should keep.

It will keep all of them, and give the player the choice of which ones they want to use. NeoLemmix already does this to some extent anyway via its hotkey system, SuperLemmix will just make it a bit more overt by making these features toggleable only in the Options menu. (So rather than it being a case of "just don't like it if you don't use it", a player won't just end up toggling it back on mid-game anyway - they'll commit to an experience and go with it).

In addition, I recommend keeping Clear Physics Mode just because let's be honest hidden objects suck and it doesn't actually make fair levels easier

If I was going to go down the route of making this a "full Retro" engine, CPM would be the first thing to go!

As it is, I'll probably be keeping this as a panel button if I can figure out how to make the small circular buttons as seen in the panel mockup. It is a good anti-troll feature, after all.

Though I do hope you at least keep pausing with a hotkey even if you don't keep assign while paused.

Yes, of course. I'll map it to "P" by default since that makes most sense, but of course players will still be able to customise their own hotkeys. Assign-whilst-paused will be toggleable via the Options menu for players that like the challenge.

I likely wouldn't go with "Force Classic Mode" unless level designers wanted it. It's my thinking that most players on here wouldn't like that, so it's probably not something I'll spend too much time pursuing.

Why disable auto screen start?

I meant disable it by default, not remove it altogether. I'd rather have to click it for it to set the start rather than forget that it's been auto-set in the wrong (or a less-than-ideal) place. Maybe it should be a user-side option ("Prefer auto-start" or something like that).

[WillLem]

SuperLemmix now has its own board!

You can download the latest version of SuperLemmix here.

Refer to the OP for a quick index to the various topics; feedback/suggestions/ideas are all more than welcome.

[Silken Healer]

What would you say if you had to sum up the goal of SuperLemmix in one or a few sentence(s)? Originally in the early days of the fork the goal was just "reintroduce timed bombers so it's possible to play levels 100% classically" but I'm getting a bit confused about what the point is now as it's progressed a lot further in the recent days.

(As I'm reading this back I feel like it comes across as bit rude so sorry this is not meant to come across as negative)

[WillLem]

What would you say if you had to sum up the goal of SuperLemmix in one or a few sentence(s)?

Fair question. I'd say that the purpose of it is evolving all the time, but the main goals at this stage are:

1) Make a version of NL which includes as many of the features that I've always wanted as possible, and hopefully other people will enjoy it as well.
2) Learn as much as I can about program development and maintenance.
3) Have some fun!

[jkapp76]

I love the new 2.0 so far! This release probably puts this player in the lead.

A little feedback; I love the new amiga cursor, but I think it would be better if the tip was the active part of the cursor. I sometimes miss what I'm aiming for because it currently needs the center of the hand instead of the fingertip area.

I would like blank red and blue icons in the gfx folder for customization. (like superLemmini)

It would be cool if spears could kill zombies. But this might just be my imagination running wild.

(Looking forward to the hold mouse button frameskip feature too)

[WillLem]

I love the new 2.0 so far! This release probably puts this player in the lead.

Glad you're enjoying it, but it's definitely not a competition! (At least not in my eyes anyway!)

I've come a long way with it, and I won't deny that it's been both surprising and satisfying to achieve so much in such a short space of time, but I couldn't have done it without a lot of help from Namida and Eric (original [Neo]Lemmix devs), who have both been very supportive of what I'm doing (at least from a programming point of view).

Again, though, I'm very glad that my efforts are appreciated, so thanks

I love the new amiga cursor, but I think it would be better if the tip was the active part of the cursor.

Yes, so would I! I'm not entirely sure how to reposition the hotspot, it defaults to center and I didn't want to mess with it in case it affected the actual in-game cursor. I will try again to move it if I can, but failing that I guess a workaround would be to just make the graphic bigger and have empty space to the top and left of the actual image.

I would like blank red and blue icons in the gfx folder for customization. (like superLemmini)

That's how the buttons get their different coloured backgrounds (i.e. by hard-drawing it into the graphic itself). I can revert back to a single colour for all buttons if people prefer? I'd need more feedback on this tbh.

Meanwhile, if you want to customise your own copy, the old blank icons will still work (but, you'll need to hard-draw the backgrounds into those icons yourself). That way, you can have different background colours per-button, if you wish!

It would be cool if spears could kill zombies. But this might just be my imagination running wild.

I like the idea

But then, why wouldn't Spears also kill regular or neutral lems? This sort of thing could get messy/buggy very fast. If I have time after I've finished all of the other stuff that needs doing, I might have a play with this and see if it's possible/viable, but I'm not promising anything.

(Looking forward to the hold mouse button frameskip feature too)

Yes, me too! I have a feeling that if I can harness that particular feature fully, I can also use it to tidy up the Rewind feature.

I'll also be looking at visual SFX and animated grenades for a future update, both good ideas worth exploring.

[Floyd Brannon]

If this is fully compatible with every NeoLemmix level pack I'm going to switch to it. I like it.

[Flopsy]

If this is fully compatible with every NeoLemmix level pack I'm going to switch to it. I like it.

Any level in NeoLemmix which uses the Stoner skill in their solution will not be compatible unless the pack has been updated by its author, this skill has been swapped for the Freezer skill.

[jkapp76]

I love the pitched sounds for the release rate. It seems too loud to me though, like it shouldn't drown out the music so completely.

Also, there is a purple button.png file in the panel-hr folder. I'd like this in red and blue. I forget what you said previously about this, but I'd like to experiment with the minus, restart, plus and such by using my own art on them. Rather than hunt for the hue.

I think making the amiga cursor with empty space to re-align the point might work good.

[WillLem]

If this is fully compatible with every NeoLemmix level pack I'm going to switch to it. I like it.

What Flopsy said. The Freezer basically is a Stoner but with a different shaped mask (that of a slightly rectangular block). I've made it non-Climbable so that it can still block Climbers (and to differentiate it from the Stacker), and tbf in most cases the levels may be portable by simply transposing Stoners to Freezers (the author of the level would need to make that call, though). See this topic for more information about converting packs from NeoLemmix to SuperLemmix.

I love the pitched sounds for the release rate. It seems too loud to me though

Agreed. At present, the -/+ RR buttons use the same sound as assigning a skill to a lemming (which is also the case in the Amiga version, hence the decision to do the same here).

For the next version, I'll copy the RR sound as a separate file, make it quieter, and call it 'changerr' or something like that. That way, the sound becomes customisable and people can substitute it for whatever they wish, but by default it'll still be the same as it is now (except quieter!). Implemented in Commit 8a5c6f54c

Also, there is a purple button.png file in the panel-hr folder. I'd like this in red and blue

I've added these to the graphics sharing topic.

I think making the amiga cursor with empty space to re-align the point might work good.

Yes, it's a good enough workaround - I'll include an improved version in the next update. Implemented in Commit 2fbadfc3a

I'd rather figure out how to move the hotspot so that it can be hard-coded, tbh. But then again, I suppose leaving it in the centre makes it easier for people to create custom cursors for the menu, should anyone wish to do so.

[Floyd Brannon]

I would like the feature (forward 1 frame) added.
I like the < key for back step and > for forward if possible. These keys look great as forward/back keys. The > is also the period and is set to slow-mo by default.

The press to hold option is needed too.

[jkapp76]

I don't know if this is intended or not, but the new release rate tone doesn't play when paused. It seems like it should have sound since it allows you to adjust the rate.

[WillLem]

I would like the feature (forward 1 frame) added. I like the < key for back step and > for forward if possible

Maybe I've misunderstood, but if not, then SLX (and NL) already has this. You can configure any number of framesteps (-/+ 1, 2, 7, 124, etc) to any key(s) you like by going to Options (F3 from main menu) > General > Configure Hotkeys. Here, you can make the </> buttons into -1/+1 frame respectively, if you wish.

It's fairly self-explanatory once you're in the hotkey dialog, but do let me know if you need any help/instructions with how to do this.

The press to hold option is needed too.

Yes, this one's already on the to-do list, and there's a topic for it here as well. With a bit of help from my friends, this one should happen

I don't know if this is intended or not, but the new release rate tone doesn't play when paused. It seems like it should have sound since it allows you to adjust the rate.

Yes, I think so too (it would already be happening if I could find the part of the code that needs to be tweaked in order to make it happen). I did mention this when 2.0 was released, the idea being to see what people think of the sound and whether it should trigger when the game is paused, or not. I think it should, but others may disagree.

I'll count this as another person being in favour of it, and look a bit harder for the relevant code This is now implemented in Commit 078cabf11

[Floyd Brannon]

I figured out the assign keys thing.
Having lots of fun.

[WillLem]

Done a bunch of things in the past few days:

Levels no longer end when only zombies remain (due to the new Kill All Zombies talisman being available)
The nuke animation plays out in full when only zombies remain (previously, it skipped straight to the postview)
Single-lemming levels no longer end when the lemming dies
Levels no longer continue after TimeUp when the save requirement has been met
Gameplay ends when time has run out in Classic Mode
The RR sound can now be triggered whilst the game is paused!!! (this was one of those things that was ridiculously easy to fix, but the solution took a long time to find)