Level Design Contest #27 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)

[NieSch]

solved
3) Niesch's Splash or Splat (had to slightly tweek both intended one and Talisman one)
4) Niesch's Tomb of Doom

Well done!

[kaywhyn]

Still not quite for R3. For V5, swapped the cannibal trap with the smaller wrong exit trap and replaced the brick with a not as wide one.

[ericderkovits]

Solution for V5 of

Kaywhyn's Hero Time Again?

[∫tan x dx]

@ericderkovits

D'ohhh! Another backroute!

V4 has been uploaded!

[ericderkovits]

Solution for V4 of

Tan x dx's Garden of Love

[∫tan x dx]

@ericderkovits

I'm going to accept this as intended!

I see you saved an extra lemming and a bomber, but I think that's close enough to my solution!

Nicely done!

[IchoTolot]

I have some resolved levels from tan x dx and kaywhyn.

@kaywhyn: I noticed in your new R3 level that the traps are missing their frames and therefore look a bit odd (the trapdoory had some extra frames around them in L3). --> They are also among the objects.

Nice level though and I think my solution should be intended!

[kaywhyn]

Icho

R1 - 100% intended now! Nice job! I'll reiterate here, which is your solution to the previous version of the level was intended, except I didn't realize there was one trick in the bottom left area that could be avoided. Now, in this latest version I do see that it was used, and with that the other tricks I intended as well are now all there, so I'm happy I think you can now see that the way you placed the stacker was completely self-inflicted and therefore the solution was made more complicated than it needed to be in the previous version. With the change I made, not only did it eliminate the pixel precision (there should be a few pixels more leeway in the stacker placement now ), it also enforced a trick I intended in the bottom left area.

Spoiler

The tricks I intended on this level: Bomb a stacker in progress to make a splatform for the crowd on the far right, stack and use a lemming on top of the stack to build to reach the structure on the upper left area, stack close to the first stack and then bomb a lemming on top of the stack so that you can make a hole in the first one that the others can step onto it while also making sure you don't bomb through the wooden staircase, and finally with the two worker lemmings at the top to platform and build at about the same time so that you can catch the builder with a stacker and also allow the crowd to step up the wooden staircase to get the button while also building in such a way so that you seal off the gap to temporarily contain the crowd and then find the pixel precise bomber placement to allow you to take away that one pixel to free the crowd.

Also the level title is a bit of a hint to the solution, where it refers to how the bomber uses here all blow up the terrain added by the constructive skills. Granted, you could blow up some of the terrain as well if you want to in some cases, like with the platformer over the exit, but all bombers used here do blow up the terrain from the construction skills

I do apologize for the pixel precision on some of the skill assignments, in particular the stack on the far right and the construction work at the top of the level, but honestly I don't think there's a better way to enforce the tricks otherwise.

R2 - Your solution was already 100% intended from the previous version, but the reason for the change was to fix a very glaring backroute found by eric that allowed you to send several lemmings past the zapper trap, therefore allowing you to save and finish with a lot of time to spare. I hope the steel on the thin pole is still noticeable, as I realize that it can be a bit hard to make out. Once again, thank you so much for your tip on how to make thinner steel pieces!

R3 - Your solution is essentially intended, with the only minor thing that isn't intended is the use of the bomber to avoid the trap. I could maybe make some changes to enforce the solution I had in mind better, but I'm quite on the fence about it here and is probably a very big nitpick on my part if I do make an update. I'll think about it, but if I do release an update that's really the only skill assignment you need to tweak in that area. There will probably be one other change I'll make that won't affect the solution as well, so I'll likely release an update after all, but I'll do it when I'm good and ready.

I do apologize for not being more original with my R3. As you can probably guess from the level title, this is inspired by Mayhem 3 of L1, only I took things further and made the solution a bit harder and also uses the two new skills added to stable NL, the slider and the laser. So really, this was just my attempt at another 1-of-everything (the other one of mine that's this type of level was "Cross into the light, my lems" from LDC 23) that is a "It's hero time!" type level, meaning the only reason for the 1 minute time limit is simply due to it being a characteristic of that level This was the only kind of level I could think of for weeks, and I tried my best to come up with some other level for R3, but nope, I had nothing else in mind.

Regarding the traps, are you saying that the idle animation is a few frames too short? Or the killing animation? Of course, credit goes to TTW for the secondary animations for them, as I didn't change anything here with the triggers. In the process of updating my R3, I've also noticed that the trap triggers are different widths and heights as well. I definitely could enforce the solution better if I had used the small square trapdoor trap instead of the cannibal one, but it still would had required burying the trigger very deeply into the terrain (though not as much as the latter) and would had made it not look as nice IMO.


As usual, I can't thank you enough for playing my levels and the very useful feedback as always! I'm always constantly looking to improve my levels in any way possible, especially the visuals, and all your feedback has proven to be very valuable with helping me improve Also, as mentioned in the LDC Compilation topic, like you, I can definitely see the huge improvement in the visual department in my more recent levels!

[IchoTolot]

Regarding the traps, are you saying that the idle animation is a few frames too short? Or the killing animation? Of course, credit goes to TTW for the secondary animations for them, as I didn't change anything here with the triggers. In the process of updating my R3, I've also noticed that the trap triggers are different widths and heights as well. I definitely could enforce the solution better if I had used the small square trapdoor trap instead of the cannibal one, but it still would had required burying the trigger very deeply into the terrain (though not as much as the latter) and would had made it not look as nice IMO.

No, nothing to do with idle animations or triggers! It's rather that there is another object that normally blongs to them.

With frames I mean a literal frame for the objects!

Take a look at the "trap_door_frame" and "trap_wrong_exit_frame" objects of the l3_egypt style and you'll see what I am referring to.

[kaywhyn]

No, nothing to do with idle animations or triggers! It's rather that there is another object that normally blongs to them.

With frames I mean a literal frame for the objects!

Take a look at the "trap_door_frame" and "trap_wrong_exit_frame" objects of the l3_egypt style and you'll see what I am referring to.

Ah, I see what you're saying. I didn't know about that at all. I thought that's how the traps were supposed to look, without the frames. However, I have not played the game L3, so of course your knowledge here about the door traps was quite helpful. Also, now that I think about it, I should had known about those door traps not looking right due to seeing them in your United pack anyway, so that should had occurred to me, but it didn't. I wonder if the L3 Egypt style can be changed to merge the frames with those door traps, then In that case, I'll make sure to release an update to my R3 to include the outer frame of those trapdoor traps before you record your video on your updated solutions. I'll likely do this in about a week or two, once I'm back from my hiatus from Lemmings and have played through all the Lix and contest entries myself

To reiterate, your solutions to my R1 and R2 are 100% intended, while R3 I'm a bit on the fence though the solution I have in mind isn't very much different so I may let it slide, I might not. I'll have to think about it.

[kaywhyn]

I've released a V6 for my R3 not to fix a backroute, but rather one that adds in the door frame objects for the wrong trapdoor traps, as well as added some additional door traps in the bottom left area just in case there are any funny ideas that can be used there to backroute the level even though I'm certain they aren't needed. Just one trap suffices, but can't go wrong with making triple sure, right? Here, I must thank Icho for his feedback and lending his knowledge of the L3 door traps having a literal door frame! I honestly didn't know about that, but it does make sense, since what's supporting the door and allowing them to stand upright otherwise? Also, I should had known that they didn't look right without the frames because of how I've seen them used in Icho's United pack, but nope, I didn't catch myself. 

@Icho

After thinking long and hard about it, I've decided to accept your R3 solution, so nice job solving it nearly intended! Really, if I did in fact release an update, it would just be a steel block on the terrain where the trap is and hence all that's needed to fix the replay is adjusting the bomber placement by a pixel or two. In the end, I decided against the fix, since it just looked strange to me despite just being a steel block. And yea, that would just be a very huge nitpick on my end, when your solution isn't that much different from mine and the effect is essentially the same,

Spoiler

using a bomber to avoid the cannibal trap is intended regardless of how it's done via the placement

I've attached my solution for you to compare. Really the only difference to my solution is I use different lemmings at the start to do the first few skill assignments and the bomber assignment but is otherwise the same. I also grant you permission to show off my intended solution to my R3 after you show off yours, if you want. You don't have to, of course, but just know you have my permission to show my replay solution for your video

[kaywhyn]

Finally started playing through these! I have solved the R2's and R3's of geoo's and Simon's Lix levels, as well as all the R1's. My replays are attached.
Phew, save for TTW and WillLem's levels, I must say these R1's were all deceivingly tough! I also haven't had any luck with Simon's and geoo's R1's yet. I'll have another go at them later! No hints, of course!

For tan x, is it correct that there aren't any stackers anymore for your R1? When I was watching Icho's video on the R1's, the level had stackers, but it seems that in V4 there aren't stackers It just has bombers and builders now, with most of them as pickups.

Simon's Bumper Cave R2V1

Nice easy level demonstrating running and jumping into blockers to turn them to reach other areas well.

Simon's Rhizome R3V2

My solution doesn't have the crowd use all of the far right side, and I only platform from the right side. I still use all the skills though.

geoo's The last shall be first R2V1

Like Icho, this one was a bit too much timing for my liking. Once I realized what the solution needed to look like, I ended up making so many adjustments on when to assign the runners, so after a while it just got really frustrating. I was able to save 2 due to careful placement of the last bomber.

geoo's Pommes schranke R3V2

Nice level, although I ran into the frustration of the bomber taking out part of the final platformer bridge while the lone lemming was platforming before the crowd arrives and slips by him, as well as one pixel more to the right and it would seal the gap to the exit but leave that gap in the bridge near the start of it, but one pixel before and there won't be a gap due to the bomber but it now won't reach the exit by a pixel. This was very annoying, I admit Here, I was able to save one over the requirement.

All rightie, now my feedback on the R1 NL entries.

Armani's Primitive Instinct R1V2

Tough one but really good! It was very hard to see building a bridge from both sides on the far left side being the most efficient, but I especially like the bridge on the right side to catch one of the final lemmings from the left trapdoor. I also had trouble figuring out how to get the lemmings to go over the top, but then I spotted a stepping up through the thin ceiling with a bomber after building twice. In the end, I have a bomber to spare and was able to save 1 over the requirement, so I wonder if this is a backroute

Niesch's Tomb of Doom R1V2

Nice level. Like Armani, I kept running up on skills short for a while, before I realized that it's a nuke solution. Even after this realization, I kept running up a lemming short, so that was a bit annoying. Then I tried some RR fiddling and after some time I finally got it to work. I think the funny thing was that I was considering making a nuke level for this rule, but guess I'm saving that for a later time. Seems like every noteworthy level designer of this community has made some kind of nuke level. I have yet to make one, though.

tan x's Garden of Love R1V4

Tough one, especially with how to contain the crowds when you're faced with a 99RR and 3 trapdoors. Took me a while to figure out how to stop the bottom entrance crowd from dying, until I came up with the builder wall. Interesting trap near the exit, I don't think I've seen it before. Is that a new addition to the tileset?

The Tomato Watcher's Demolishing Old Ruins R1V2

Nice medium difficulty level. I was able to save a few skills and two over the requirement, so backroute?

WillLem's The Instrument R1V1

Another nice medium difficulty level. This reminds me of a few other levels (I think one from Lemmings Plus and another from RotL) that uses a similar concept.

[Simon]

Rhizome: This is a backroute. Good find! I already have an idea for fixing it. I'll see when I have time. Released Rhizome v3 with fix. Thanks!

Bumper Cave: Intended. Bumper Cave is deliberately easy to counterbalance the fiddliness in Last Shall Be First.

-- Simon

[Armani]

@kaywhyn That's intended Well done on saving additional lemming.
Your solution is identical to geoo's and eric's.
It's possible to solve the level without RR fiddling with the extra bomber. But it's optional.

[Simon]

Natural-born v4: Armani, the wider waterfall hasn't fixed my backroute from Natural-born v3. The lemmings can swim upwards even in the wider waterfall. I've thought that for a month and never came around to re-solve it, but here's the proof, finally.

-- Simon