Level Design Contest #27 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)

[IchoTolot]

@geoo Both your solutions to my levels are intended! great job!

@The Tomato Watcher   Do not be discouraged by backroutes! It happens to all! Just go though recent contests and check the version numbers and this doesn't even count in all the backroute wars in packs! Just go through Lemmings Uncharted, Lemmings United or any other pack that has been out for some time and see the flood of backroutes coming in.
You may argue that with more experience somebody can reduce the backroute count by a bit by seeing stuff in advance, but that does not always save you!
If I go through the levels (probably after the first solving wave is over) I can try and help with some backroute fixing ideas if they are still present at that point - might need the intended solution then though.

Also I updated the packs!

[kaywhyn]

Also to add on to what Icho already said, backroutes happen to even the best of us. Yes, backroutes do hurt, but keep in mind that they don't necessarily mean the level isn't good. Rather, a level being solved with a backroute simply means that the intended solution isn't 100% enforced yet! I can think of plenty of times where I mentioned in my feedback that I thought the "level was great but I liked it even better now that it's fully patched up."

In regards to taking a look over packs/past content/past contests, this immediately sprung to my mind something I remember reading about, and that is a level by Crane from a very early contest. It was riddled with backroutes but it still ended up winning the contest it was in! Here, I fortunately remember Icho's list of previous contest results (thanks! ), so that tremendously helped to narrow down which discussion topics to look at. So, don't lose hope and encouragement! Again, backroutes don't make a level bad, just that the intended one isn't enforced yet.

Another example, but one of my own: My R2 from the previous contest. If you look at the update topic, it went through at least 20 versions! However, it was the most popular of my levels even though none of them ever made it past the rule voteoff. I had the thought that the many backroutes harmed it more than it should, and it did to some extent, but it was nevertheless the most popular of my levels in that contest.

Nevertheless, if backroutes are frustrating to you, then it's fine to take a break and come back and fix up the levels once you're good and ready. I had to do that for some of the past contests and I felt getting away from them for a time helped since they allowed me to look at them again with a clear mind and conscience to fix them. That sounds like what you're already doing, Tomato. Good idea!

[Armani]

played through the first rank and attached my replays for all except for the one I pretested.

Internecion Cube

I first tried to contain the whole crowd between two stackers to use compression method but it didn't work out nicely. Nice trick with that stacks with a dent to make something resemble one way force fields. Also the final stacker was not easy to see too.

Tomb of Doom

Wow this is definitely not an easy solution to see. Every path I tried fell into at least one skill shortage. After I realize the exit is placed on top of the steel plate, I started to considered the possiblity of the nuke solution. Nice level

Demolishing_Old_Ruins

That's really pretty tileset. I think I haven't seen it before. I'm a big dino lover and I absolutely like the huge dino trap. Though I was a bit disspointed by the sound effect of this beautiful huge creature.

The_Instrument

That was a easy but cool level. I wonder which instrument this level is depicting.

Stop_Blowing_Up_My_Construction_Work

Not 100% sure if this is intended but I think my solution at least resembles the intended one. The contraption on the leftside of the level seems very relevant to the solution and I took full advantage of it.

[Simon]

Swim Team Rush v2: Backroute, abusing a finnicky start to save time.

Stop Blowing Up v2: Looks sensible, but still feels too comfortable near the end and loses only 2, not 4.

Natural Born v3 (higher pole), thanks for the hint. I haven't found a solution, but I have new ideas to try later. Interesting things will happen.

Tomato Watcher: No worries!

-- Simon

[kaywhyn]

Armani and Simon more or less found the same backroute to my R1, except Simon's does better in the number saved. For V3, I added buttons. Unfortunately, I think this now makes the solution way too obvious, but I've been proven wrong about this several times in the past by Armani, when he tells me that my levels still tend to be challenging despite when I use pickups/buttons as fixes. Both are still far from what I have intended.

For R2, indeed Simon found a pretty elegant way to save a lot of time due to what was done at the start. For V3, the fencer is now a pickup. Again, I fear this makes the solution way too obvious now, but feel free to prove me wrong! Even if it is, this might seal the deal on forcing the intended. Also, I forgot the last time, but thanks for the compliment on the uses of the water!

[NieSch]

Tomb of Doom

Wow this is definitely not an easy solution to see. Every path I tried fell into at least one skill shortage. After I realize the exit is placed on top of the steel plate, I started to considered the possiblity of the nuke solution. Nice level

Thanks! Intended solution.

geoo and Simon: Your solutions to Splash or Splat where you manage to spare a few skills are still possible in V2. (But I might change this later. ) Well done!

I made a V3 now. geoo's and Simon's solutions don't work anymore. (Although they were clever. )

[IchoTolot]

@Armani: Intended solution for my R1!

Also the pack has been updated.

[Simon]

Lemmings are Beans

I bunker the crowd near the start and still make the time limit. The save requirement is low enough that I ignore one of the bear traps, the trap kills every 3rd lemming. Still saves 5 lemmings extra.

Cute trick where the glider creates a climber-stopping lip for himself.

Natural Born v3

Stylish trick where two platformers meet at the fountain. That gains height for the one-way obstacle. Nice! Leftover skills: 2 stackers.

Splash or Splat

A variant of what geoo and I did before. I save exactly the save requirement. Leftover skills: 1 shimmier, 1 floater. In hindsight, Splash or Splat looks open-ended even though surprisingly little seems to work on first sight at all.

geoo will post an even more efficient solution.

Stop Blowing Up v3

Floating terrain at top-left: Finnicky alignment, everything must be pixel perfect. Feels like an area with multiple backroute preventions.

After I had the solution, I understood why the top-left area must be this finnicky. Nice theory behind this solution! Looks intended and mostly forced, apart from geoo's egregious backroute that geoo will post today.

What's the reasoning behind the death drop at the bottom left? They require release rate fidgeting to avoid deaths, and seems to add/prevent nothing.

Swim Team Rush v3

Beginning without fencer looks forced now. I keep the fencer for the remainder of the solution, resulting in an easy remaining solution.

Tomb of Doom v2

geoo had the idea to nuke. Finally, the water pits make sense; they gave a choice between platformer and stacker. Saves exactly the save requirement, that's a good clue that the nuke route is intended.

-- Simon

[NieSch]

Splash or Splat

A variant of what geoo and I did before. I save exactly the save requirement. Leftover skills: 1 shimmier, 1 floater. In hindsight, Splash or Splat looks open-ended even though surprisingly little seems to work on first sight at all.

geoo will post an even more efficient solution.

This is still a backroute/alternative solution. After seeing geoo's solution I'll see if I can tweak things again.

Tomb of Doom

geoo had the idea to nuke. Finally, the water pits make sense; they gave a choice between platformer and stacker. Saves exactly the save requirement, that's a good clue that the nuke route is intended.

Intended!

[geoo]

Splash or Splat

Attached two solutions. The second one saves a bomber and an extra lemming.

Stop Blowing Up v3: Brute-forced my way through a wall, definitely a backroute.

Swim Team Rush v3: Again, looks like a cheap backroute, even has an extra minute on the clock.

The Magic of Lemmings

I wasn't aware that you can assign jumpers to sliders, until Simon pointed it out to me. Until then, I always had to use an extra exploder to achieve the same thing. That's my bad though. The time limit is really nasty though. My hunch is that my solution is intended, but I spent 30 min to get it work within the time limit, trying to shave off frame by frame by modifying the blocker and miner assignment, usually by just one or two pixels. This was really annoying. I also attached two things I tried that didn't work, one could work with a bit more time though, but again, it wasn't clear whether it could be squeezed into the time limit or not, wasting a lot of time trying. That's why time limits suck, and tightening them to eliminate backroutes makes things more annoying usually... I quite liked the level, it's very clean and simple and yet very though, but the time limit spoils it for me quite a bit, given the experience I had with it...

geoo's solution to Pimitive Instinct is almost intended. Just a little bit of detail is missing.

I solved the updated version. The change I made seems quite elegant, so maybe intended?

Spoiler

I did save a bomber though, and saved one extra lemming. Also, the previous solution almost still works, maybe you could make the water hole bigger to make it more clear that the previous strategy doesn't work there.

Your new solution to Hanabi is 100% intended!

[NieSch]

Splash or Splat

Attached two solutions. The second one saves a bomber and an extra lemming.

Well done. They're backroutes, so I made a V4.

The Magic of Lemmings

I wasn't aware that you can assign jumpers to sliders, until Simon pointed it out to me. Until then, I always had to use an extra exploder to achieve the same thing. That's my bad though. The time limit is really nasty though. My hunch is that my solution is intended, but I spent 30 min to get it work within the time limit, trying to shave off frame by frame by modifying the blocker and miner assignment, usually by just one or two pixels. This was really annoying. I also attached two things I tried that didn't work, one could work with a bit more time though, but again, it wasn't clear whether it could be squeezed into the time limit or not, wasting a lot of time trying. That's why time limits suck, and tightening them to eliminate backroutes makes things more annoying usually... I quite liked the level, it's very clean and simple and yet very though, but the time limit spoils it for me quite a bit, given the experience I had with it...

You did find the intended solution* but if it was causing you so much frustration that's not a good thing. I'll think what I can do about it. Thanks!

*Attached is my execution of it.

[kaywhyn]

@Simon, geoo

R1:

Simon's solution is very close, but the reason you found the bottom left so fiddly is because that part is the only unintended part in your solution, as it misses one final trick that I wanted to enforce there. Geoo's solution, on the other hand, is much farther away and is indeed a very bad backroute. For V4, I extended the trap near the bottom right, as well as replaced the steel with a wooden plank where the left entrance is. I could had maybe added in a timer to prevent Simon's waiting, but I rather avoid that for the time being

R2:

Both solutions are very bad backroutes, as the way the containment is done is very much unintended. For V4, I replaced the terrain under the trapdoor with steel and erased some of the left wall which will prevent that.

Spoiler

In both solutions, the timer is exactly supposed to prevent that backroute with getting to the exit from under! Yes, I could had used the easier way of preventing it by adding OWAs/steel instead of a tight timer, but I rather leave the very appealing get to the exit from under on either side, the left side which very well looks like it will work due to the somewhat generous timer but sadly no amount of RR fiddling will allow you to finish on time if you take it! In the intended solution at least

[IchoTolot]

Pack has been updated and includes WillLem's new level + music. (styles should already be in the standard download)

[ericderkovits]

Solved 5 more levels

1) Tan x dx's Rule 1 Garden of Love
2) WillLem's Rule 2  Direct Drip (Contest Version)
3) Kaywhyn's Rule 2 Swim Team Rush
4) Niesch's Rule 2 and 3 Splash or Splat, and The Magic of Lemmings

[The Tomato Watcher]

Alright, first of all, thank you so much @IchoTolot and @kaywhyn for the encouragement. That, along with just taking a bit of time away from everything, really helped.

@Armani, your solution to my R1 was definitely a backroute, but I incorporated a small part of it into V2's intended solution. The tileset in question, by the way, is the tileset for the Medieval Tribe in Lemmings Tribes, which, to avoid any confusion, is a completely separate game from L2. Here's a wiki page about it that I put together a little while ago if you're interested: https://lemmings.fandom.com/wiki/Lemmings_Tribes. Anyway, I was the one responsible for porting the tilesets over to NeoLemmix, and since its tilesets would fall into roughly the same category as the L2 and L3 ones (and since it doesn't have trap sound effects anyway), I just stuck with the default sound effects for traps, which is why the dragon (since it is a Medieval tileset I believe it is indeed supposed to be a dragon, but its design is quite dinosaur-like so you're entirely justified calling it a dino) sounds the way it does. Since these tilesets are directly ripped from an officially licensed Lemmings game, they should probably be properly labeled and put below the L3 ones, but I didn't pay any attention to that or say anything on that matter when I uploaded them.

@Simon, your solution is, expectedly, another horrendous backroute. It's pretty likely I'll just throw out the Stacker entirely and adjust the level accordingly in V2. I had quite a clever use for the Stacker in mind when designing the level, but after some consideration I think it is literally impossible to enforce without completely changing the spirit of the level. There is indeed a reason the save requirement and exit cap are what they are.