Level Design Contest #27 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)

[Armani]

@geoo Your solution is actually intended.

Spoiler

Your solution is intended except that it's slightly more efficient than mine. All builder placements and bomber placements are correct. I can strictly enforce my solution by locking the release rate, but I don't think it's necessary and I will take your solution as challenging variation of the intended solution. Well done

@Simon

Spoiler

Wow I didn't expect it's possible to platform from both sides to cross the waterfall. I have no choice but to widen the water fall... /spoiler]

[Armani]

And I played through all of rule2 and rule3 levels.(+updated rule1 levels )

Demolishing_Old_Ruins

I now use every skill! It's more challenging and satisfying now since building all over the dino trap felt a bit cheesy

Stop_Blowing_Up_My_Construction_Work!

I attached two solutions. I'm pretty sure the first one is intended. And I slightly tweaked the first solution so I was able to save one more lemming.

Skyfall

The solution was quite obvious I think. Still I like the overall scenry of the level.

Splash_or_Splat

feels intended I used all the given skills and overall interactions between the permanent skills and movement skills looks good.

Swim_Team_Rush

I might have backrouted this one. I have a leftover basher.

Direct_Drip

This was a fun level. I have a spare walker though.

Mincemeat

Probably the talisman of this level took me the longest to figure out. I barely got the talisman after so many attempts! I'm feeling good now

Supreme_LEMCO_Safety_Standards

Where to use the basher and using a jumper to hit the wall and turn around was the most difficult things to figure out here. After I found out that you can make a splatform at the leftmost side of the level without a basher, everything fell into place perfectly. It was definitely a cool level

The_Magic_of_Lemmings

The timer is very tight!(or did I miss something ) The climber/slider athlete has to fall into the miner tunnel otherwise he will just keep going to left and die. This was my favourite part.

Lemmings_are_Beans

This was a cool action based level. I like the sense of urgency through out the level.

Jumpstone

It was a surprisingly hard and enjoyable level.

[Silken Healer]

Jumpstone

It was a surprisingly hard and enjoyable level.

Well done Armani! That was the exact intended solution

[The Tomato Watcher]

@Armani, your solution to my R3 was actually surprisingly close to the one I had in mind for the level. Seems like you experienced the overall feeling of the level I intended.

Spoiler

There was some very trivial cheese that allowed you to save a Walker and consequently made the ending less intense. That's the least of my worries patching this thing.

[NieSch]

Splash_or_Splat

feels intended I used all the given skills and overall interactions between the permanent skills and movement skills looks good.

The_Magic_of_Lemmings

The timer is very tight!(or did I miss something ) The climber/slider athlete has to fall into the miner tunnel otherwise he will just keep going to left and die. This was my favourite part.

Both intended. Well done! Yes, the timing is (too) tight. I'll try to make this better/less frustrating some way.

4) Niesch's Rule 2 and 3 Splash or Splat, and The Magic of Lemmings

R2 is a backroute*, R3 is intended. Well done!

*I made a V5 now.

[kaywhyn]

@Armani

You're actually the closest to my intended solutions to both of my levels out of anyone! However, they still need some more patching.

R1 - Your first solution is similar to Simon's solution in that you both are about 97-98% intended except here you also did something unintended on the right side. Your second solution is a bit farther away. Both solutions do miss a trick I intended on the bottom left. For V5, I shifted the wooden plank with the needle traps on them to connect with the steel platform, shifted the structural terrain near the middle left a bit, and added some needle traps within the exit area on both sides.

R2 - Again, you're the closest out of anyone who has played this level to intended! As you might had guessed, what you did at the very end is the only unintended part and also you avoid using one area of the level. For V5, I added more steel to the starting platform and a steel block where you did the mining and bashing, and sadly I had to take away another 20 seconds off the timer so that now you only get 4:30 for the level. Because this now breaks my replay, I made some adjustments in the top area by adding more terrain so that there's less walking around. As a result, my new intended solution finishes with a couple more extra seconds than previously, but it's still a bit tight.


Also in case you're wondering, yes I still intend to enter a R3, but I'm trying to make sure everything is ok with my R1 and R2 first before doing so. Plus with the idea I have in mind I feel it will be the least interesting of all my levels this contest similar to the previous one, especially since I think when people see it it should be pretty obvious what level I based it off of.   

[Crane]

Well done on getting the talisman, Armani.  That's a tough one!

Also to add on to what Icho already said, backroutes happen to even the best of us. Yes, backroutes do hurt, but keep in mind that they don't necessarily mean the level isn't good. Rather, a level being solved with a backroute simply means that the intended solution isn't 100% enforced yet! I can think of plenty of times where I mentioned in my feedback that I thought the "level was great but I liked it even better now that it's fully patched up."

In regards to taking a look over packs/past content/past contests, this immediately sprung to my mind something I remember reading about, and that is a level by Crane from a very early contest. It was riddled with backroutes but it still ended up winning the contest it was in! Here, I fortunately remember Icho's list of previous contest results (thanks! ), so that tremendously helped to narrow down which discussion topics to look at. So, don't lose hope and encouragement! Again, backroutes don't make a level bad, just that the intended one isn't enforced yet.

Another example, but one of my own: My R2 from the previous contest. If you look at the update topic, it went through at least 20 versions! However, it was the most popular of my levels even though none of them ever made it past the rule voteoff. I had the thought that the many backroutes harmed it more than it should, and it did to some extent, but it was nevertheless the most popular of my levels in that contest.

Nevertheless, if backroutes are frustrating to you, then it's fine to take a break and come back and fix up the levels once you're good and ready. I had to do that for some of the past contests and I felt getting away from them for a time helped since they allowed me to look at them again with a clear mind and conscience to fix them. That sounds like what you're already doing, Tomato. Good idea!

I don't actually remember that level.  Do you remember which one it was?

[kaywhyn]

Well done on getting the talisman, Armani.  That's a tough one!

Also to add on to what Icho already said, backroutes happen to even the best of us. Yes, backroutes do hurt, but keep in mind that they don't necessarily mean the level isn't good. Rather, a level being solved with a backroute simply means that the intended solution isn't 100% enforced yet! I can think of plenty of times where I mentioned in my feedback that I thought the "level was great but I liked it even better now that it's fully patched up."

In regards to taking a look over packs/past content/past contests, this immediately sprung to my mind something I remember reading about, and that is a level by Crane from a very early contest. It was riddled with backroutes but it still ended up winning the contest it was in! Here, I fortunately remember Icho's list of previous contest results (thanks! ), so that tremendously helped to narrow down which discussion topics to look at. So, don't lose hope and encouragement! Again, backroutes don't make a level bad, just that the intended one isn't enforced yet.

Another example, but one of my own: My R2 from the previous contest. If you look at the update topic, it went through at least 20 versions! However, it was the most popular of my levels even though none of them ever made it past the rule voteoff. I had the thought that the many backroutes harmed it more than it should, and it did to some extent, but it was nevertheless the most popular of my levels in that contest.

Nevertheless, if backroutes are frustrating to you, then it's fine to take a break and come back and fix up the levels once you're good and ready. I had to do that for some of the past contests and I felt getting away from them for a time helped since they allowed me to look at them again with a clear mind and conscience to fix them. That sounds like what you're already doing, Tomato. Good idea!

I don't actually remember that level.  Do you remember which one it was?

Precarious construction part 2, which I believe I have played when I started my LP of all the contest entries a while back. I don't remember if I used all the skills, I'll have to check.

[IchoTolot]

@Armani: Both solutions are intended!

And yes, my R2 is intentionally on the easier side as I try to incorperate a few levels here and there that are solvable without too many problems for the sanity of the players.

[Crane]

I'll say my level is on the easier side for once as well.  If you just take a deep breath and go to it, things fall into place with the skills you have.

[Armani]

Resolved all the updated levels

[kaywhyn]

@Armani

Your solutions to both my R1 and R2 are now about 98% - 99% intended! Meaning, we're not quite there yet, and I think the V6's will seal the deal on them

R1 - This one still avoids a trick I intended on the bottom left. For V6, I added in a 1:50 timer. Yes, I thought about making one of the stackers a pickup instead, but I honestly don't want to disrupt the X-of-everything skillset from the get-go In any case, you just need to tweak the bottom left a bit and you should be good to go. Other than that, your replay is essentially the exact same as mine! I can assure everyone that the timer allows plenty of leeway, and I could even add in an extra 5 seconds, but I'll just keep it currently at 1:50 for now.

R2 - What, you mean to tell me that I misplaced that steel block near the exit? Ok, this was a complete dumb on my part For V6, I simply shifted that steel block near the exit a few pixels to the right. I originally just shifted it 1 pixel, but let's better be safe than sorry, so let's do a few extra pixels over

Spoiler

Still, that was a nice abuse of the checkerboard mechanic that I totally didn't account for and think it would be possible for anyone to slip by with a miner from the right side of the large steel block.

[The Tomato Watcher]

@Armani Both solutions are pretty much intended!

I did update my R2 just now, however, as you revealed some potential for other backroutes by finding a way to save a skill. I don't know if that extra skill would lead to anything disastrous, but better safe than sorry.

[Armani]

Resolved updated levels.
All seem good now

[kaywhyn]

@Armani

Your solutions to my R1 and R2 differ in a few details but are pretty much intended! Well done!

R1 - Perfect, now your solution pretty much contains all the tricks I intended! Basically the title here serves as a bit of a hint.

Spoiler

Tricks I intended: Exploding an in-progress stacker early enough so that the maximum height is reached in order to make a splatform for those coming from above, building high enough on top of a stack so that you can reach the structure in the upper left, and finally building in such a way as to block anyone from following the builder and then to bomb away a pixel of the staircase to release them with a well-placed bomber. In the end, if you follow the intended route, the timing of the platformer coming from the right at the top and the builder coming from the left should meet at the right time so that the platformer can catch him with a stacker. The interesting thing was that I originally was aiming for a 3-of-everything level, similar to Icho's R1, but then once I realized the difficulty of enforcing that builder trick at the top, I went further and decide to make puzzle revolving coming from both sides at the top so that you cannot get to the other side without platforming from the right side. Near the end, it nearly became a 4-of-everything level except for the bombers, where you only have 3, but then I realized wait, one could just bomb through the platformer that you did over the exit to reach it later, and thus it still ended up perfectly as a 4-of-everything

The main purpose of the bombers are to basically just explode the terrain added by the constructive skills instead of the normal terrain. However, the only time you can explode the normal terrain is at the bottom left and possibly the small wooden staircase near the exit if you wish but of course that's not required

R2 - Intended!

Spoiler

The only difference from the intended is you sent two lemmings to the right and one dies to the shredder trap. In my solution, I did more multi-tasking by sending three through it so that two pass through the trap unharmed, but of course it's not necessary since you'll still finish the level with about the same amount of time as if you just sent two through it instead. My way simply prepares the route faster.

In any case, the main trick of using the stoner to stop everyone else from going through the zapper trap as well as to allow them to step up to get through the miner tunnel is there even though the stoner itself isn't really needed for that since you will pretty much mine low enough so that swimmers can step up without it. Also mining from both sides at the top to release the crowd, otherwise you won't be able to get to the exit.

As you can see, due to the timer there are two other alternative routes that you could try for but sadly you will always run out of time. One of them would even be a very bad backroute due to it allowing you to save more than the requirement if it succeeded. This took me a very long time to figure out how to block. Yes, I could had easily just blocked them off with OWAs/steel, but I wanted to leave them in as very appealing routes that look like they could work but they don't, no matter how much RR fiddling you do.

Thanks so much for playing my levels, and I hope you liked them Stay tuned for my R3 which will hopefully be ready soon. I put it off longer than I needed to and should sit down with the editor and make it soon!