Level Design Contest #26 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)

[NieSch]

Wee Walk in Winter Wonderland

Beautiful scenery with nice use of tileset mixing Not the most difficult level but I had to think carefully which skill I have to use first. (If my solution is intended )I was very tempting to use the digger to remove the long pillar but it didn't work! It was a nice red herring I would say!

Thanks! Your solution is completely intended.

Spoiler

(Using the digger to remove the pillar leaves 1 pixel between the two tunnels I think. )

[SQron188]

I hate sand

It was a small with very minimal skillsets but still end up being quite tricky! I enjoyed it a lot I especially like the usage of the miner to release the bottom lemming while also chiping off the ceiling to release the top lemming

Thank you for the words of appreaciation, they are greatly appreciated! Yes, that was the intended trick of this level and its main idea.
This trick as well as the tileset's been on my mind for a while and I had to itch this scratch. ; )

BTW I really enjoyed your levels, especially the one where you shoot zombies, they're just beyond my solving skills! :#

PSA: part 3 of my solving attempts is on YouTube https://youtu.be/IuYqd2Tqik4

[IchoTolot]

@Armani:

I had 1 shimmier left over, NieSch 2 and you 3 now.

It is totally fine and intended though!

Maybe that is a good bronze talisman solution in future pack inclusions as with a little bit of planning and timing you can easily save those 3.

@SQron

One of your attempts in your video made me find a bad backroute to my R2 which is now fixed with a steel block, so thanks for that!

[NieSch]

PSA: part 3 of my solving attempts is on YouTube https://youtu.be/IuYqd2Tqik4

These videos of yours are fun to watch! You were very close with finding a backroute for my R3 level. I made some changes to it in V4 so this backroute is no longer possible. And well done finding a solution to my R2 level.

[kaywhyn]

@Niesch

R2 - You're correct in that's a backroute. For V5, I added some more steel, OWAs, and added and modified some terrain. Also moved the cloner pickups and the basher is now a pickup.

R3 - Both solutions are backroutes, sadly. For V4 - I widened the water gap and shifted the terrain on the right side of it.


@Armani

Your solution to R3 is almost 100% intended, but what isn't is the way you used the second basher. So, for V4 I added some steel. So for this version, all you just need is a way to contain the crowd, tweak the second basher assignment, and then you have the intended solution!

That was intentional. That's how I quote a spoiler tag.

Ah, well personally, if something was behind a spoiler tag to begin with, then the user being quoted generally had a really good reason for doing so. For me, it's simple: It's because I don't want the solution spoiled for anyone! Of course, even with a spoiler tag there's nothing stopping the person from opening it, either accidentally or intentionally, but well, that's on him or her. Thus, I would make it remain behind one when I'm quoting another user However, I will say this, and that is you did do it correctly when you made the update to Uncharted and replied to some of my solutions/remarks, so that was much appreciated


All in all, this essentially means not a single person has found the intended solution to any of my levels yet! However, I think I have a really good feeling for both my R2 and R3 now. R1 is probably still very broken, but well, let's see. Try the new updates and I'll keep my fingers crossed I'll finally have the intended solution enforced on one or some of them now!

[SQron188]

@SQron
One of your attempts in your video made me find a bad backroute to my R2 which is now fixed with a steel block, so thanks for that!

yw

These videos of yours are fun to watch! You were very close with finding a backroute for my R3 level. I made some changes to it in V4 so this backroute is no longer possible. And well done finding a solution to my R2 level.

Thanks. Figuring out which areas are safe-to-enter for sliders & climbers, respectively, was satisfying

[NieSch]

@kaywhyn: I'm starting to see where the intended solution to your R2 level is heading, but I found another backroute (for V5) first. Here it is.

I hope you don't get discouraged by all the backroutes. It's the fact that you only need to save 1 lemming in combination with the unlimited number of jumpers that is causing it I think. (And there is always gonna be backroutes of course, in almost every level.)

[kaywhyn]

Thanks for the replay, Niesch! Indeed, it's another backroute that I somehow missed. For V6, it's an easy fix: Replaced the barrel with the bigger one, added some OWAs on the barrel, as well as a small block, and shifted the terrain a bit in that area. Now you won't be able to cheese the level the way you did!

I hope you don't get discouraged by all the backroutes. It's the fact that you only need to save 1 lemming in combination with the unlimited number of jumpers that is causing it I think. (And there is always gonna be backroutes of course, in almost every level.)

It can hurt, but as with anything, experience helps! Backroutes arise not only because sometimes it's not possible to catch them on your own, but also it's extremely difficult to predict how another player will go about solving your level. Thus, it is never certain that all backroutes have been caught. I've made enough levels to know that backroute fixing can sometimes be just as time consuming as solving. In addition, the more complicated the level/solution, the more likely the level can be backrouted due to the degrees of freedom such a level can provide, especially with the skillset.

In any case, you and SQRon are other players besides Armani and Icho (who always play all contest levels, including mine) who have shown me additional backroutes, and for that I'm very thankful for the replays. I think you already know Armani and Icho both have the very uncanny ability to backroute levels because they're extremely good at the game. Therefore, it's very difficult to backroute fix against them. I've had my fair share of numerous backroutes from each of them in some of the previous contests

[NieSch]

I found another way around it, kaywhyn.

Spoiler

I'll keep trying to find the intended solution. I'm sure it involves turning the shimmier around with blockers which will make for a cool solution in the end.

[kaywhyn]

@Niesch

Ugh, just when I finally think there's no other way around the intended solution For V7, the RR is now locked and I added another small block. This should do it now... I hope!

[NieSch]

Nope, here's another one. I'll give the level a rest now and come back to it later.

[Crane]

Turns out my fix didn't quite work as planned.  V4 of Perilous Parkour now released.

[kaywhyn]

@Niesch Ok, finally released a V8 for my R2, which replaced the brick terrain with another piece type and added several of them near the barrel, as well as more OWAs. Also added a small brick piece close where the exit is in the area beneath it. It took a while because I kept trying to stop a backroute I discovered to no success. I think this might finally do it. If this still doesn't stop your backrouting, then I'm not sure what else I can do with this level to fix it further without making it more of a mess which it's starting to become

[Crane]

I dare ask if Perilous Parkour is fixed now or if previous solutions still work with some adjustments (the ones I've seen so far are backroutes).

[kaywhyn]

Finally got all the R1's solved, although in Icho's case a resolve, as I pretested his R1 but we failed to get it properly all patched up before the start of the playing phase. My replays are attached. I must say, all the R1's are quite difficult, and I even assess mine to be hard as well. If anything, my R1 could possibly be the hardest of the entire contest collection pack, assuming backroutes don't break it, of course, but if not, then possibly contender for the hardest after Icho's R1.

@Icho

Ok, I think we finally got the 100% intended solution enforced! It might had taken 1 more version because of Armani, but you finally did it I can't shake the feeling that I didn't do enough for you because of how your R1 didn't get all patched up before the start of the playing phase, but well, this is just me being too hard on myself, so I think you will disagree about me not having done enough. Not to mention that it isn't worth it to delay the playing phase just because of this, especially as it was already delayed once when the submission phase deadline got pushed back.

I do have a blocker left, but I know exactly what it's for.

Spoiler

It's to avoid the timing element I did on the far right side with the platformer. The blocker I released earlier just happen to come at the right time in order to mine and so the platformer keeps going to the left while the miner slides out to the right. So really, mine is just the intended solution that happens to be a challenge solution of sparing a blocker. Also, now I know the small thing that kept being missed, and that was platforming to the left from the builder staircase near the exit to help the sliders go back the right way towards the exit. This was quite hard to see, interestingly enough!

Armani's The Irony of Fate R1V1

I'm very positive this is the intended solution and if so, nice level here! Indeed, this was challenging but that's because the backwards builder trick in combination with the glider was very hard to see. I tried it before and I thought I saw it didn't work, but I think that was only because of how I placed the builder going to the left. The glider just barely lands on the staircase, but that is the nice thing about gliders in that they open up their glide much faster than floaters. Any other solution I tried just ends up running at least a skill short or just doesn't work at all. I got to ask, why 55 stoners?  Perhaps that's the "irony"?

Niesch's Blocker From Hell R1V2

This was quite tough, especially since resources are far tighter than they appear. The only saving grace here is the very low RR. I think after a while it becomes very apparent how nearly all constructive skills need to be used, as otherwise you'll just run out. The hardest to see was on the right side with two builders being enough to stop the splatting. Before, I kept using stackers to do so, as in my mind I thought the builders would be very useful elsewhere. I thought using two builders to stop the splattage was too "wasteful," hence why I rejected this for a while. I don't like how one lemming went splat on the left while the second platformer was going, as by that point I ran out of floaters/gliders. I do have some skills left, but they're mostly blockers/bombers and a few climbers. Even then, this seems to be an open-ended level for the most part, although still not too much because of the very restricted skillset. This one definitely reminds me of Taxing 6 from LLL, as I remember criticizing it for being way too tight on the execution in order to be able to save that crucial lemming from the right entrance that would otherwise leave you 1 under the requirement. Here, the timing isn't as tight, but there's still the sense of urgency to stop the splatting ASAP. Doubly so because both hatches are splat ones. That's easily the hardest part of the level, how to stop splatting from both entrances as quickly as you can. 

I was planning to post the R1 replays after I got Armani's R3 solved, but I will need some more time to think about it. I simply wanted to get all the R1's done