Level Design Contest #26 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)

[IchoTolot]

@kaywhyn

I think R1 is intended now.
But, let's say all the pickups and steelblocks have turned quite a few parts of the level "on rails" aka it is clear what needs to be done because terrain + pick-ups throw out all (or most) other possibilities.
The most prominent example here is the new top right section:

Spoiler

- Because of the steelblock at the button it is pre-determined you need one of the other climbers here and top left is the obvious candidate and that therefore also pre determines the top left corner pretty much.
- Because of the digger pick-up and the iron slope for the lower lem the way to turn around the top climber multiple times is clear.
- Because of the stoner pick-up it is clear a lemming has to go into the flamer path with no exit and there is no way out from there (even digging down at the platform isn't viable anymore). So the only thing he can do there is block.

As a result entropy, and therefore difficulty have dropped quite a bit.    --- That does not mean I dislike the level now! I still think it is a good one!

The only thing that makes me think that it could maybe be another backroute is that I do not see the resemblance of the solution to neutrality 7 yet. Do I miss something here?

R2 should be a another backroute sadly.

[kaywhyn]

@Icho

R1 - That is 100% intended. Well done!

@kaywhyn

I think R1 is intended now.
But, let's say all the pickups and steelblocks have turned quite a few parts of the level "on rails" aka it is clear what needs to be done because terrain + pick-ups throw out all (or most) other possibilities.
The most prominent example here is the new top right section:

Spoiler

- Because of the steelblock at the button it is pre-determined you need one of the other climbers here and top left is the obvious candidate and that therefore also pre determines the top left corner pretty much.
- Because of the digger pick-up and the iron slope for the lower lem the way to turn around the top climber multiple times is clear.
- Because of the stoner pick-up it is clear a lemming has to go into the flamer path with no exit and there is no way out from there (even digging down at the platform isn't viable anymore). So the only thing he can do there is block.

As a result entropy, and therefore difficulty have dropped quite a bit.    --- That does not mean I dislike the level now! I still think it is a good one!

That's a good point, I didn't think about the solution being a bit more obvious the way it currently is. I think at some point I had both of the stoners be the same pickup rather than separate ones, but that probably still won't increase the difficulty significantly. Then again, I think to someone like you the difficulty wouldn't be as high because you're very familiar with the tricks, but to many others it will be a very hard level because of the many tricks needed. Some I consider quite obscure.

Spoiler

For example, blocking and then stoning him to remove the blocker field that's holding back the others to release them. I actually discovered this when I was resolving Aquarius 10 of Uncharted. As Armani has told me last night on Discord, it's not required on that level, but I thought it was so cool that I wanted to make a level that requires it

Also, regarding that trick, I was thinking it was possible to place the blocker the way you did. In my solution, I use the last lemming going to the right going underneath the staircase to block so that everyone is contained on the right side but those coming from the left can still merge with the crowd on the right side and thus allow the climber to still build out to the right. In any case, it doesn't matter, as the important thing is stoning the blocker to release the crowd trick is present in the solution

Then there's the others too: Totally Stoned trick of digging down a stoner to make a safe drop, turning fallers in midair with a blocker, and finally using a stacker to make a splatform, as well as digging out the builder staircase to stop the climber from getting into danger. Also I guess bashing into the steel to turn around can be considered one

Sadly, the new upper right section is needed due to a timing heavy solution Armani showed me on Discord last night that would spare you a few skills. Originally, I was going to accept that as an alternative challenge solution, but I later discovered that one of the leftover skills would make an obscure trick I intended not required anymore and therefore a fix was needed This to me was the easiest way to fix the backroute without making anything else look too out of place

Happy to hear that you enjoyed the level! I hope I did your tileset justice here, even though in its current state it doesn't look that great anymore IMO with all the fire traps everywhere but they were necessary to block all those backroutes sadly. I really wanted to include your duneworm trap in some way just so it at least makes an appearance in a level of mine, but sadly I couldn't think of a way to without it looking too out of place. However, I just thought about how it could, and that is where the masher trap is. It still won't change the intended solution in any way, it'll just simply be another obstacle to get by. Even then, the level's already been updated so many times, so I probably won't update it just for that I'll think about it, though, along with possibly changing up some of the pickup locations.

The only thing that makes me think that it could maybe be another backroute is that I do not see the resemblance of the solution to neutrality 7 yet. Do I miss something here?

Let's say not the overall solution itself resembles that of your United level, but rather they share some elements. For example, both have buttons and hence they're hunt the buttons to push and unlock the exit type levels. Another is they both are 99RR, although with mine the crowd isn't in any danger right away. Yet another is

Spoiler

- Multiple workers required, 3, similar to what your level needs. They also all take separate paths to do work in a different part of the level. The biggest difference is that mine I would say is on the much harder side because in contrast to your level, which gives you a floater and a glider, in my level you don't have either one! The only athletic skills you're given are climbers and a swimmer, the latter which is another thing shared with your level as it too gives a swimmer.

=> Because I didn't think to do what I described in the spoiler, I was stuck on Neutrality 7 for a long time and hence it was my first major roadblock of the pack. This therefore lead to me to make a tribute to that United level of yours The big difference is that mine is far harder IMO due to the many tricks required, at least when the intended solution is enforced.

R2 - For V19, changed the OWAs on the thin pieces in the upper middle area to downward ones. I know they're hard to make out, but hopefully in the area it does cover the direction of the arrows can be discerned. Somehow I feel the area can still be brute forced to cheese the level, but let's give it a try. In any case, it does stop your backroute you showed me

[IchoTolot]

@kaywhyn

That should still be a backroute for R2.

[kaywhyn]

@Icho

V20 That might be a record, but I don't know for sure. Just added a barrel with downward OWAs on it at the top of the climb where you cheesed the level. I originally thought of putting in steel in the mix with the OWAs where you used some bomber shenanigans, but sadly the steel can be abused there too. Also they don't go onto the terrain too well due to the size on slope terrain and cannot cover all of the outer edge/slope without disrupting and ruining the intended solution. Please tell me the backroute fixing nightmare for this level is over *fingers crossed*

[IchoTolot]

@kaywhyn

No, still a backroute.

[kaywhyn]

@Icho

R2 - I give up, you win. Just playing No, I have one more idea for a fix I made to the level which might just do it now. For V21, the climber is now a pickup, and due to the location of it, I have to move the cloner and blocker pickups in order for the intended solution to still work. I had realized in earlier versions that the climber skill is very problematic here, so why I didn't make it a pickup until now is way beyond me. I think it was simply due to every skill I provide for the skillset in this level overshadowing it because of how they been abused to cheese the level and hence the climber went completely over my head Also added some more steel around the middle area.

In addition, I made some terrain modifications to the floating brick platform around the middle left area in order to reduce the frustration in executing the solution. Personally, I'm not a fan of extremely excessive and repeated assignments of the same skill, as I tend to find this very annoying and no fun, and since I don't want a player to constantly rewind to readjust the timing and assignment of the jumpers while waiting for the main worker to get where he needs to, I decided to help out the player in this regard. Yes, the timing can still be somewhat tight, but I did my best here to make sure it's not super tight, and luckily there's still plenty of leeway. There are ways to make it easier anyway, and hence for this reason I might even show off 2 variations of doing that area of solving the level when I go over my own levels on video.

[IchoTolot]

@kaywhyn

I think this is quite a bit closer now.

[kaywhyn]

I've decided to release an update for all 3 2 of my entries. For R1, I feel extremely bad for taking back my word, but I decided to be picky and reinforce one tiny thing at the start. For V16, I've added some steel blocks which will unfortunately break both Icho's and Armani's replays of the intended solution, but here you both just need to readjust the assignment of the 4th climber. Everything else can stay the same. Yes, I know it's very nit-picky of me, but honestly I went into the editor and saw that it wasn't as big of a visual mess as I thought it would be when I put them in.

edit: R1 has been reverted to V15 per Icho's feedback. Thanks! Don't know why I thought the changes was a good idea on my end

For R3, I simply added water to fill up the bottomless void on the far left, just to pretty up the level. Now that looks better! Icho's and Armani's replays are unaffected and hence still work


@Icho

R2 - Now this is 99% intended, with the only thing wrong being the final blocker assignment. Ah, didn't account that you can swap the final blocker assignment with either lemming. There were several easy options for me here, but interestingly enough still took me a while to decide on something. For example, I thought about using a ketchup wheel trap there, and similarly with using multiple masher traps near the exit, but something about these didn't feel/look right to me. I also thought about simply putting another barrel at the top. Eventually, I decided to use a more radical, albeit unnecessary, fix. I came up with terrain modification in the middle right area. For V22, here, left two 1-pixel gaps.

Spoiler

I honestly wanted to preserve this red herring, as there were some others which unfortunately needed to be eliminated due to some earlier fixes already I'm certain I extensively tested every possible pixel assignment in this area here and none worked, so really, it looks like it's definitely possible but isn't. However, once again feel free to prove me wrong, as it's possible I might had missed one or a few.

[IchoTolot]

@kaywhyn

Resolved. I think R2 is intended now.

The change in R1 just added a bit of (in my opinion) uneeded timing and out of place looking steelblocks. The solution does not really change critically - so I personally would just take out those blocks again, remove that extra timing element and rather have a better looking level.
But again personal opinion here, if that timing part is important to you leave the blocks in (or maybe resort to a flamer).

[kaywhyn]

@Icho

R2 - Finally, that's 100% intended. Great job! Never knew this level, which isn't as involved as my other 2 entries, would be the most problematic to fix up Then again, you're kind of the king of solving and backrouting other people's levels

The change in R1 just added a bit of (in my opinion) uneeded timing and out of place looking steelblocks. The solution does not really change critically - so I personally would just take out those blocks again, remove that extra timing element and rather have a better looking level.
But again personal opinion here, if that timing part is important to you leave the blocks in (or maybe resort to a flamer).

Good points, thanks! Per your feedback, I decided to revert the change and reupload V15 of my R1. See the update topic for that. As mentioned, that was extremely nitpicky of me, I'm not sure why I thought that was a good idea

[kaywhyn]

Replays attached for the new levels. In general, these were somewhat decent for being open-ended levels for the most part, save for R2, which is the most restrictive of the new levels, but still lenient enough that it can still be solved in any way the player wishes. However, let's say that there's still a lot of room for improvement here!.

R1 - I honestly don't see the point of the talismans here, as you can easily get all of them in the same solution.They don't really add much to warrant being in the level, let alone there being so many different solutions. For example, solving without the swimmer one. If you don't want the player solving the level with it, just get rid of the swimmer skill! That achieves the exact same thing! Also, why is solving without a swimmer and solving under 2 minutes both on two separate talismans and then both are requirements on the third one? You have a third talisman that requires both of those individual requirements, along with the new, additional requirement of saving everyone. Meaning, the third silver talisman makes the two individual bronze ones redundant. Just get rid of those two bronze talismans and just have the silver one that combines all 3 together. Even then, I would just get rid of the talismans altogether, as already mentioned they don't really add much for the level.

Also, unnecessary timer - cull.

R2 - Here, I don't understand why the walker pickups are past the exit. You can easily solve the level without them However, if you set the save requirement high enough then they will absolutely be needed, so this can easily be fixed.

R3 - Invalid entry! There are two things in the level that violate the ruleset, the neutral hatch and pickups. The reason being that both of these are not found in the game L2. Therefore, you will need to find some other way that doesn't use these two, although the neutral hatch can easily be solved by either taking it out or just making it a regular lemming hatch.

Also forgot to mention that the pre-text is absolutely unnecessary here and can be taken out. Now, if this was for a level pack, then sure, it's perfectly fine, but for a contest entry, no need for it, especially if it's a hint like the text starts with.

Once again, but especially the case here: Extremely unnecessary timer that can be omitted 

[Silken Healer]

Thanks for playing and for your feedback kaywhyn! You found a way to save a few more lemmings and/or skills then I thought were possible but you didn't backroute anything.

R1 - Yeah that's fair about the talismans tbh and I'll remove the timer.

R2 - The walker pickups are because my intial solution when before I entered the level required you to save the blocker at the end to get enough lemmings saved. I think I should keep them in though in case you wanted to save the blocker at the end for fun to get a higher number of lemmings saved or still used my solution.

R3 - I have the hint because using a shimmer to stop a builder and/or blocker is a trick that can be used in that level but I can take it out if you think it's unnecessary. I'll also take the timer out. The skill pickups I can easily work out as the level still works without them pretty well but if the neutral hatch at the bottom was turned into a regular lemming hatch it would trivialise the whole level so I'll have to think about how to make that one a valid entry.

[Silken Healer]

By the way how do I remove attachments from an old post?

EDIT: nvm I figured it out.

[Silken Healer]

Okay I've played around with Rule 3 and I've got it so it'll be a valid entry and took your feedback on board. The level does still have a time limit, but due to the other changes I made it's now necessary.

[kaywhyn]

I have the hint because using a shimmer to stop a builder and/or blocker is a trick that can be used in that level but I can take it out if you think it's unnecessary.

First part with the builder is correct, however, that's not right with the blocker, as you cannot assign a shimmier to a blocker. And yes, the hint is not needed. It's fine to include it for the level if it was for, say, a level pack and to help out the less experienced players if they were playing the pack, but for a contest entry it's out of place. Besides, one can easily check if it works by selecting the shimmier skill and then assign it to a builder/platformer to see if it's possible or not. You could always place it back after the contest anyway, especially if you decide to put the level in a future level pack later on.

By the way how do I remove attachments from an old post?

EDIT: nvm I figured it out.

In the future, please observe this for updates, which I quote from the update topic:

Please follow these rules for updates:
1. When posting a new updated version of a level, remove any old updated versions of that level --> Have all your recent updates stored in 1 post! I will delete such old posts eventually if the author doesn't; so don't store any important information in them.
2. Make a new post for a new update; do not edit your most recent post. You may, however, post updates to multiple entries (if you have more than one) in the same post.