Level Design Contest #26 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)

[kaywhyn]

@Icho

Yup, both are still backroutes to my R1 and R2, but I think they're still fixable to force the intended solution even if it's getting rather annoying and depressing for me, especially the latter. The very massive changelogs for my levels in the update topic doesn't help matters

R1 - For V9, I added some small square steel blocks right where the flamethrowers near the entrance are. It should hopefully now be clear that releasing the crowd out to the left is not my intention I think there might still be another problematic area and so probably not all backroutes have been caught yet, but let's see.

R2 - Well, now once again the blockers have been the source of backroutes, so now for V14 away they go and are now pickups on the other side of the water pit to the right of the entrance! Heck, I may as well make everything pickups, as it seems that no matter how good the puzzles are I can't get any of my levels to work without making anything pickups

[Armani]

@IchoTolot
I think you already know, but all your solutions to my levels are intended

@kaywhyn
Thanks for spotting the cheesy backroute! I probably will fix it after the contest(adding OWW as you suggested )

[IchoTolot]

@kaywhyn   I sadly suspect more backroutes here.

[kaywhyn]

@Icho

R1 - I kind of suspected that there can be some stoner abuse shenanigans near the entrance, I knew I should had shifted the entrance over That's exactly what I did for V10: Shifted the entrance a few pixels to the right. Also added another steel block to the floating platform near the entrance. Finally, shifted the flamethrower on its steel platform at the far upper right area to the left and down some. I'm still not feeling confident that this will force the intended solution completely, but I'm really hoping it will be closer than all solutions I've seen. It still avoids some tricks I've intended completely!

R2 - Never would had thought this level would be so hard to fix up For V15, added another block of terrain near the exit and changed the left facing OWAs to be pointing downwards.

[IchoTolot]

@kaywhyn This should be another round of backroutes.

[kaywhyn]

@Icho

Well, I guess what comes around goes around. I gave you a hard time with your R1 when I pre-tested and backrouted it numerous times. Now it's the other way around, where you're giving me a hard time with both my R1 and R2

R1 - Many changes here for V11: 3 of the stackers are pickups, 1 of the diggers is a pickup, and both stoners are pickups. Also added another steel block and erased a bit of it, as well as shifted the flamethrower and its steel platform on the far upper right in such a way so that its trigger area overlaps that of the erased part of the steel block.

R2 - Ugh, every part of the map is being used against me, including the huge red block of terrain where the barrel is! For V16, added right-facing OWAs on it. I guess really adding to and prettying up the level really worked against me this time. It doesn't even look as pretty anymore with all the OWAs, but as you know from your experiences, sometimes that's the way it is, when it comes to forcing the intended solution, even at the cost of aesthetics.

I really do hope this is the last time I need to fix up these two levels of mine. Backroute fixing my own levels really stresses me out

[IchoTolot]

@kaywhyn

Sadly, I bring bad news.

[kaywhyn]

@Icho

indeed for both R1 and R2

R1 - Added another small steel block to the floating platform right by the entrance and also shifted the entrance a few more pixels to the right for V12

R2 - Changed the OWAs below the exit to point downwards instead for V17. That now hopefully covers all shenanigans you might pull off with the bombers/laser around the middle area to allow you to cheese your way to victory

[IchoTolot]

@ kaywhyn

R2 is still a backroute, but I could at least be somewhat close with the R1 solution.

[kaywhyn]

@Icho

R1 - You are correct, we're getting very close now! Thank goodness, because every solution I've seen is quite far from intended, and it only seems to get farther and farther with every version Seems like the small steel block added to the floating platform near the entrance was very critical. Everything to the left of the entrance is now intended except for the sacrifice and hence that led to some skill savings. There's still some intended tricks that are missing on the right side that I haven't seen in any solution from either you or Armani. However, I might had found a way to finally enforce them. For V13, decreased the stoner pickup quantity to 1 and moved the other stoner pickup to the far right side. Also replaced two of the steel blocks in that area with a right triangle one and added a small square steel block to its bottom left corner, and finally shifted the firebox trap below several pixels to the left. I think this will finally do it, but feel free to prove me wrong, which is probably likely given your solving caliber and your uncanny ability to backroute anything thrown at you

Spoiler

Finally the "Totally Stoned" trick of digging down a stoner to make a safe drop down is present!

R2 - Nice backroute there. For V18, decreased the blocker pickup quantity to 1 and moved the other two blocker pickups to the same area as the cloner pickups. Also added more right-facing OWAs on the terrain where the laser was misused. In the process, I also discovered another very bad backroute and hence added right facing OWAs to the terrain below the one with arrows facing both the left and right. Think this will finally do it but again feel free to prove me wrong

[Armani]

Finally I had some time to resolve kaywhyn's r1
The first solution is probably another huge backroute but the second solution seems promising although I have a leftover stoner.

[kaywhyn]

@Armani

R1 - Oof, the first solution is indeed a very bad backroute. For V14, I made the digger a pickup in midair on the far right, as well as added another firebox trap. This added trap might not even be necessary, but by this point I'm just going to make doubly sure no more cheesy stuff can be tried in that area

Your second solution is indeed almost intended! The only thing that isn't intended in your second replay is how you released the crowd. Same fixes I mentioned above apply for this backroute too.

Spoiler

Awesome for finding that the other three tricks I intended: Digging down a stoner to make the drop safe (just like "Totally Stoned" from United), turning fallers in midair, and using a stacker to make a splatform for the crowd! Icho has already found the first one, it's the latter two that I have not seen in any solution by either you or him until now Now only one more (possibly another one on the far right as well) which concerns the release of the crowd needs to be found and you'll have it. This I mentioned that I don't exactly know if it's intended from an Uncharted level of yours, but rather I discovered it while resolving it. I thought it was so cool that I had to include it in this level too Let's see if you can find it

Since you now manage to be the closest to the intended solution for R1 thus far, I think you have definitely seen parts of the solution resembling that of Neutrality 7 - Victory Is Inevitable from United, which is what the level title is paying homage to. The biggest reason for my tribute to that United level o Icho's is because of how it was my first major roadblock of the pack. I got stuck so bad that I ended up taking a break from playing the pack for about 3-4 weeks before I came back to it and got myself unstuck after several more unsuccessful attempts.

You'll probably likely agree with my assessment that this level is my most difficult I have made up to this point in my Lemmings level designing career, mostly due to how the intended solution is very well-hidden and the somewhat obscure tricks needed, most notably digging down a stoner to make a safe drop and turning fallers in midair, though you used this in your R1 of LDC #22.

[Armani]

I think we finally made it

[kaywhyn]

@Armani

And that is 100% intended! Great job for being the first to find it to what I assess to be my most difficult level I have ever made thus far

Spoiler

The part where you released two more climbers on the left, one to drop in the water, the other to dig, yours is a slight variation on how I did it. In my solution, I basically timed the second climber in such a way so that he still lands on a tiny bit of the stoner terrain that remains while the digger is still destroying it and hence falls safely to the steel platform below without splatting. However, the way the other one falls while over water is fine. I thought about blocking that, but not only will the level just be messy in appearance, it will also destroy the trick entirely, as then he'll just land on a steel platform higher than where he'll eventually land where the builder goes left over the gap, which doesn't quite produce the same effect IMO. Therefore, I'm just going to let it be and allow it. Besides, me being all nitpicky over just that? It's not worth it

The main reasons why it's a very hard level: Digging down a stoner to make a drop safe, turning fallers in midair, and the extremely obscure trick of blocking and then stoning him to remove the blocker field to release the crowd, all tricks which are very obscure. The level goes even further than that: using a stacker to make a splatform, building a staircase and then digging a part of it away so that the climber does not doom himself to the flamethrower above, and finally bashing on steel to turn around. All of these in one level make for an extremely difficult level IMO.

Really besides enforcing the correct constructive skill usage on the left side, it was also very hard to force that the player must send the climber that hits the button in the upper left over to the top right side to prepare the platform for the swimmer to shimmy over. In all solutions before the intended one, you and Icho kept sending a non-climber and therefore there was no need to keep him safe when he turns back to the far right side after platforming and stop him from getting into danger. Also blocking the use of a builder to make a splatform was very hard. However, my fear of the builders being used to backroute the level were definitely founded here, as the player is given double the amount of platformers, 8 and 4, respectively. That right there told me in my mind, I have a feeling my R1, while being very hard, will also be the most troublesome to fix as a result due to how the builder is very powerful. In all honesty, I probably could had removed 1 builder and had the intended solution use a platformer in the top left/middle area instead and hence the level probably wouldn't be as backrouteable, but well, I just felt the building to be the better one for the overall effect/feel of the level

Even then, the level is also very difficult due to how it's not very obvious whether to use a platformer or a builder for some of the gaps. It might seem that you can cheese the level by using two builders when just 1 platformer suffices to get over the gap (indeed, that's what happened a lot in the replays to earlier versions of the level from you and Icho), but then you'll likely not have the necessary constructive skill for a later part of the level. Thus, not being certain which constructive skill to use also makes the level hard.

Finally, perhaps the time limit isn't even needed anymore, but in earlier versions, it was definitely possible to maybe do the right side first and then cross over to the left to do the rest of the level without multitasking, and so to enforce the multitasking, that's why there's now a time limit. Otherwise, it's possible to just do one side at a time without sending multiple workers. Even then, I'll just keep it in for fear that the level will be majorly broken again without it, as the sense of urgency certainly "forces" a lot of the skill assignments in the level.

Thanks so much for persevering in resolving and all the replays!

[kaywhyn]

@Armani

R1 - Thank you so much for showing me a timing heavy solution on Discord that spared you a few skills after you had found the intended solution I originally said that it was an acceptable challenge solution, but I changed my mind after I found out that one of the tricks I intended would not be required anymore with one of the leftover skills. Thus, I decided to release a fix, and I managed to come up with a far better fix than what I was thinking of on Discord. For V15, the steel platform where the button is in the upper right area has some changes: Added a vertical steel block on the far right, two more steel blocks on the left, and added a firebox trap to the left of the button. Also shifted the button over a few pixels to the left, and then finally shifted down the platform several pixels. So, I apologize for breaking your replay of the intended solution. However, you already have the intended solution from V14, and so you don't need to send me your new replay for V15, only if you found another solution that needs my attention that I wasn't aware of. All you have to do here is reassign two of the skills in the same places if you wish once the lemming arrives, as the timing will change a bit but not significantly to impact the intended solution heavily