Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)

[IchoTolot]

Totally fine solution! Good job!

[Armani]

@The Tomato Watcher

100% Intended
I'm glad this level gave you a eureka moment. I didn't expect this level to be a hit.

[∫tan x dx]

@Armani

A nice variation on the intended solution. Accepted.

@The Tomato Watcher

I think you're on an old version. V3 has been released which automatically breaks your solution!

[The Tomato Watcher]

@The Tomato Watcher

I think you're on an old version. V3 has been released which automatically breaks your solution!

I realized that, but I checked the version numbers on page 1 of this thread and it matched the version I had. But uh... that was pretty dumb and lazy of me... oops.

[DireKrow]

@Tomato

Yet another new solution for my R1. So far, everyone who has solved it (including me) has used a different solution. They're all acceptable to me because it checks the boxes I wanted to see, yours included. Nice job.

[IchoTolot]

@The Tomato Watcher

I think you're on an old version. V3 has been released which automatically breaks your solution!

I realized that, but I checked the version numbers on page 1 of this thread and it matched the version I had. But uh... that was pretty dumb and lazy of me... oops.

Well, there was no new post for the V3 update so I missed it.

As I always state in the update topic: "2. Make a new post for a new update; do not edit your most recent post."    Then delete the old post.

[The Tomato Watcher]

4 more levels solved + a re-solve! I don't smell any backroutes here.

Apjjm's "Roiling Clouds"

I think I did a little more than I needed to here. I got the general idea of what the trick was but I spent a very long time trying to figure out how I was going to do it. The way keep you gotta keep building platforms off of other platforms while the Basher is bashing through all of them is honestly super cool to me. Nice job!

Armani's "Tightrope Planet"

A very good twist on the trailblazer setup. I kept thinking I had to assign a permanent skill right away or send two lemmings out or something, but the worker is actually used in quite a clever way here. And I quite like solutions that require to be careful about when exactly you assign a permanent skill, mainly the Climber in this case.

Crane's "Looks simple enough..."

I tried to approach this level in a lot of different ways, but I'm quite fond of the one that ended up being correct. It took me a little too long to figure out how to free the Blocker without the Basher needed for the wall, but oh well.

DireKrow's "Ancient Lemmarine"

Quite like the submarine, visually. The routing for this one was sooo hard for me to figure out, until I realized that the decorative-looking void space below the starting area was actually quite useful and saved skills in the long run. Nice level.

RE-SOLVE: tan x dx's "Not much to work with..."

This feels intended now. The way you get one lemming over the square block without the Builder needed to turn the lemming around afterward is super clever!

[Apjjm]

@The Tomato Watcher

An intended solution to the level, nicely solved

Spoiler

You can extend off of almost all of the towers in the level in a similar way to your solution. I think pretty much all of the solves so far that I've seen have used the towers slightly differently which is kinda interesting to me!

[Armani]

@The Tomato Watcher
Awesome solution

Spoiler

As you pointed out, the most important thing is that you have to use the climber skill at the very last moment. If you assign the climber skill to the worker lemming from the beginning(which is very common in other levels )you will always one skill short or one short of the save requirement!

[Crane]

I'm surprised how such a simple level of mine is causing a lot of head-scratching and appreciation of the solution!

[WillLem]

I've just been getting very frustrated with repeatedly applying fixes and thinking I've finally got the level backroute proof, only for you to keep coming back with backroutes ... it gets frustrating after a while when I need to keep on fixing up a level

I have a rule when it comes to backroute-proofing. If I have to fix a level more than 3 times, then it's not worth it. At that point I either accept that the level cannot be easily backroute-proofed and ditch it, or keep it as a backrouteable level.

Of course, since your level is a contest level then I guess it's harder to limit the number of fixes, especially if you're going for a "one solution only" type of level. It's understandable that you want your level to play out exactly as intended. Still, there has to come a point when you have to accept that the level is probably either too convoluted or too unfixable to keep coming back with more and more versions of it.

as magnificent as my puzzles are

Even if you say so yourself!

Or, learn to accept alternative solutions to my levels.

Yes! This is a way of thinking which I like to promote as much as possible. Not all levels have to be "intended solution only". Too many of these, in fact, just gets tiresome. In my book, a level which provides two or three possible solutions is more enjoyable, offers repeat play value, and is more likely to be solvable by more people. There is nothing wrong at all with designing levels with this in mind, and in fact I'd say it's a better mindset to have as a designer than the "single solution only" mentality, which often leads to levels being full of awkward and off-putting design, even if they are super clever.

[kaywhyn]

All rightie, I've updated my R3 one more time to, let's say, improve the visuals, as it started to become a mess in some areas. Here, removed some terrain and some flamethrowers. I'm also taking a big risk here with removing the glider pickups, but if the level gets broken again with future solutions I will restore them. Finally, shifted the top left hangman trap over to the right a bit.

I have a rule when it comes to backroute-proofing. If I have to fix a level more than 3 times, then it's not worth it. At that point I either accept that the level cannot be easily backroute-proofed and ditch it, or keep it as a backrouteable level.

You make a good point. However, the problem with this is that it assumes that the level's super prone to backroutes to begin with and whose solution cannot be completely enforced. How about in the case where levels can still be completely fixed up with an intended solution with, say, 4 or 5 versions? In that case, to you, do you think it's worth it to fix it up after 3 versions you limited yourself to? Maybe you've already implied that the levels whose solutions can be completely enforced are fine here and don't have to be limited to 3 versions and hence I'm probably reading into it too much. Some levels take way more versions than that before the intended is finally completely enforced as well, but again it all depends on whether one wants to accept alternatives or adapt the intended.

Of course, since your level is a contest level then I guess it's harder to limit the number of fixes, especially if you're going for a "one solution only" type of level. It's understandable that you want your level to play out exactly as intended. Still, there has to come a point when you have to accept that the level is probably either too convoluted or too unfixable to keep coming back with more and more versions of it.

I'm in agreement with there being a certain point where the level isn't worth it to fix up anymore, though it's sad to say that I haven't followed this just yet. Let's say that I still haven't gotten there yet with stopping after a certain point because I've often notice that eventually it just becomes a huge visual mess if one isn't careful

as magnificent as my puzzles are

Even if you say so yourself!

Obviously this is subjective, but let's say that the problem is either in the way I've designed them, or, probably more likely, the various parts of the intended solution I have in mind that causes some of them to be constantly riddled with backroutes Not to mention that I still seem to be in the whole fixing one part of the backroute but neglecting another area and hence I'm not quite there with killing multiple birds with one stone just yet

Yes! This is a way of thinking which I like to promote as much as possible. Not all levels have to be "intended solution only". Too many of these, in fact, just gets tiresome. In my book, a level which provides two or three possible solutions is more enjoyable, offers repeat play value, and is more likely to be solvable by more people. There is nothing wrong at all with designing levels with this in mind, and in fact I'd say it's a better mindset to have as a designer than the "single solution only" mentality, which often leads to levels being full of awkward and off-putting design, even if they are super clever.

Yes, I know how you're all for more variety with, say, sprinkling in open-ended levels with one solution only ones, as in the former one is free to craft up any solution that solves the level. Let me make it clear that I certainly have nothing against such levels, whether I make them or from others. Instead, I prefer making one solution only levels, although I'm training myself to make the latter too. So far, I have one completely open-ended level, my R3 from the previous contest. It's just that if I do end up making open-ended levels, I want to make them interesting ones too It can be hard to make them either easy or hard but still interesting.

In any case, it's good to see and read your approach when it comes to making levels and how you backroute fix levels. Keep in mind everyone is different when it comes to either one. Again, I'm trying to break away from some of these bad habits of mine in level creating/backroute fixing, but it might take me a while.

Your input is nevertheless insightful, and certainly some key points I will keep in mind!

[WillLem]

How about in the case where levels can still be completely fixed up with an intended solution with, say, 4 or 5 versions? In that case, to you, do you think it's worth it to fix it up after 3 versions you limited yourself to?

Good question. I guess that, conversationally, it really depends on how good a level I think it is. However, I think that what actually happens is that the barometer is lowered with each fix I have to make.

So, for example, let's say I make a level which I think is a 10/10 awesome level. It can be easily backrouted, so I make one fix which only changes the level slightly; at that point, I probably think it's more like 9.5/10. Then, oh dear, it can still be backrouted so now I have to really mess with the layout; now it's an 8/10. Another backroute means a third fix, this time forcing me to use pickups or some other drastic level-ruining measure; it's now probably no more than 5 or 6/10 after having had 3 fixes, and is likely to end up getting scrapped.

In another example, I make another 10/10 level (I must be on a roll! ). An easy-to-miss backroute can be just as easily fixed, so it's a 9.5/10. Another backroute means having to add a bit of steel; oh well, I can still make it look cool so it's only gone down to 9/10. Yet another backroute means a slight change to the skillset or something being moved a few pixels; I'd consider this the final fix, and the level sits pretty at 8.5/10. If it can still be backrouted, I accept that this is the case, and maybe even embrace it (make it a talisman, or even open up the level even further). This one will be kept.

The above scenarios are obviously not exact, and can happen in different ways. What I'm really illustrating is that some levels just seem to get worse and worse with more and more backroute fixes, whereas others largely remain intact with each fix. In the former example, I'll almost certainly stick to the "maximum 3 fixes" rule and scrap the level. In the latter, I might still stick to just 3 fixes and then leave it as it is, or if I do decide to keep working on it then I'll more likely go in a totally different direction with it altogether. If that happens, I almost class it as a new level rather than a new version.

Very rarely, I might provide further fixes if I reeeeally think a level is worth it. But, we're talking 1 in 100 levels as opposed to every level.

As you've said, everyone is different. There seems to be a positive correlation between solving skill and tenacity when it comes to level updates, i.e. the strongest solvers (Icho, Armani, yourself) tend to release multiple versions of their levels and will think nothing of getting to version 7, 8 or even higher. The mindset seems to be that they want to challenge the other players who are equally skilled, and so nothing other than the version which only allows the intended solution will do! (Of course, I could be totally wrong here!)

[The Tomato Watcher]

Some more replays! These ones had me stumped for a while.

Kingshadow3's "No Other Lemming's Gonna Do That!"

The solution was overall pretty clever, though I have a minor gripe with there not being a clear or intuitive way to space the lemmings properly. Maybe I'm just dumb and didn't see it, but it kinda felt like you had to time skills in a certain way early in the level to get things to line up multiple in-game minutes later. Still not bad though.

EDIT: Looking at Icho's solution in his video, I was most definitely making it way harder on myself than it needed to be. I withdraw my minor gripe. Sorry!

WillLem's "It's All A Matter Of Spacing"

A quickly paced level with a lot of moving parts. I figured this one out little by little, and not necessarily in order, but it was satisfying to see it all come together.

Armani's "Underwater Hijackers"

Another fantastic level with creative and clever use of the Swimmer and Laserer! I was stumped on this one for aaaaages before I figured out how you could get to that little water pit in the bottom of the sub in a useful way. Seriously, I tried so many routes. It really showcased the magic of different skills interacting with each other.

IchoTolot's "Starlight Pinball Zone"

Very frantic level here, with the lemmings constantly in immediate danger with no immediate way to contain them. Trying to keep the crowd safe and prepare the way for everyone at the same time was quite the challenge!

[Armani]

And now you've managed to solve all my 3 contest levels in intended ways.

Spoiler

Yeah the little air pocket inside the submarine is the key to the solution. + you have to figure out that you can use laserer tunnel to keep basher going and that the cloners play critical roles in this level.