Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)

[IchoTolot]

Intended @The Tomato Watcher ! Great job!

Also my YT playthrough is up!

Rule 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lF6n9Y_UMeI
Rule 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBROSP7As54
Rule 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hexwzDkUd8
My Own levels: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaGtIsY98c0

[Armani]

@Ichotlot All your 3 solutions are 100% intended

And I'm uploading my intended solutions and some alternative solutions I've received here for those who want

[kaywhyn]

@Icho

Awesome! Icho has solved all of my contest levels with either intended or acceptable alternatives! More specifically, R1 is an acceptable alternative, while R2 and R3 are 100% intended, with the former swapping a couple of skills around from my intended one, but it still has the essential parts of the solution in it, so no changes needed for R2 or any of my entries for that matter.

Icho's solution to Sports-tacular Athletic Rescue Mission

As mentioned, this is an acceptable alternative. In the intended solution, the normal lemming and climber lemming swap exits, i.e, the climber goes back to his own upper left exit, while the normal lemming goes to the upper right one. Where you used a platformer and a builder to close off the gap to the right wall, I use the swimmer/glider to platform to the left to get over land and it will always be done in such a way that the climber will be able to get over to the other side while the platformer is busy, and thus he climbs up the wall back into the miner tunnel he made at the start. For the regular lemming, after you bash to release him with the swimmer/glider, he laserers, shimmies into it, and builds at the edge of the miner tunnel. This will be enough to have him be able to jump to get over the green square block at the top. Then I have him build once he's at the edge of the upper platform, release the blocker with a walker once the staircase is able to catch him, then he turns around back to the right after hitting the green square block, then floats down to the island just above the bottom right area. Other than those differences, you managed to still need to use all the skills, and as I don't want to be picky here with completely enforcing my solution, your solution is perfectly fine in my eyes. Nice job!

What I really like about the solution I came up with is how I varied the ways to reach an exit: Simply shimmy to get over a water gap to drop down the other side of the exit safely (top left), platform up the water gap (top right), fence and swim (bottom left), and finally laserer and then jump into the resulting tunnel to get over to bypass the trap that's right in front of the exit (bottom right) 

Thank you for the compliment on the visuals for my R1 In addition to this, I must say that I absolutely enjoyed making the level and I love the different parts of the solution I came up with for it! I think I even like this one more than my R1 from the previous contest even though that one I'm quite proud of too. This is also the entry that got me to finally see the light on how very useful the laserer is. Even though I have played plenty of levels featuring the skill from Lemmings Uncharted, I wasn't yet convinced of its usefulness and hence still thought that it has no place in NL. However, I guess sometimes it's enough to simply make your own levels using the skill in order to see its potential! So, I have to say that I'm now in full support of the laserer skill even though it's been in stable for about a year now.

Icho's solution to The 10 Piece Puzzle Rush

Intended! The climbers and jumper can be swapped and hence the player is entirely free to pick which side to use them on. My solution uses the climbers to go out the right, while I use the jumper to get past both the small block AND the trap so that you have more leeway in the bomber placement. However, the essential tricks are still there: Using the slider to laserer through the huge block to get the final two lemmings to the exit on time, platform the gap at the bottom from the right side with the slider, and bomb away the trap trigger so no one dies to it.

Have you noticed that I'm starting to incorporate the level design element of "keeping the crowd moving, you do not contain them at all" into my own creations? I know you use that a lot, and I tend to like these!

Icho's solution to The Lemming Calculator

Intended! The trick of using the platformer to contain the right entrances took a lot of backroute fixes because Armani kept finding a way to avoid using that. I was inspired by Pacifism 41 of your United pack there of using a platformer to add height to the 6 pixel wall to block the Lemmings from stepping out. I got flustered at some point, but once I calmed myself I realized that the major sources of backroutes were the builder and shimmier, and so as much as I hated to, I had to make them pickups. The only reason I avoided using them for so long is because I hate using pickups to fix backrotues, because I always have this belief that they make my level far easier than intended. However, I've been proven wrong by both you and Armani, as the both of you have told me that my R3 is still quite difficult.

I have to apologize for my solution hugely ripping off of your R3's. However, I think it's clear that my intended solution is still vastly different from your R3's intended one that I didn't 100% take your idea completely. For example, my level doesn't use sliders, but it does use shimmiers and bombers, which your R3 lacks. Also, the level incorporates a combination of "keep the crowd moving" AND contain the crowd, where the former applies completely for the left entrances, while the latter applies completely for the right entrances. Otherwise, there's so many possibilities here but if you don't take the intended route, then you'll always end up running into the problem of someone arriving too soon and splatting or getting into danger.

I think the main reasons why the level is hard is because the route for either side is not obvious at all (being able to descend down safely inside the calculator), as well as how the skills need to be used are completely non-obvious. So, I think this is another case of me underestimating the difficulties of my levels, but I'm far from being a unique case, as this is a problem that pretty much every designer has due to how it's hard for the creator to judge the difficulties of his or her own levels. A really good example is when I give feedback to Armani! Plenty of times he thought a level was easy but I tell him it's much harder than you think it is or vice versa. I also recall giving you similar feedback when I played through United or even some of your contest entries.

With this, thank you so much to Apjjm, Icho, and Armani for the positive feedback/compliments/replays for my levels! Once again, I have Icho to thank here that I even got into level designing, as it was his encouragement to me to give it a try and without that I think I would had simply been content with just solving levels!

As for everyone else, keep the replays coming, as I always love seeing more solutions to my own levels. Not to mention others trying and attempting to get them solved I think I will get around to playing these levels myself in the next few days or so. Just been super busy lately.

Good question. I guess that, conversationally, it really depends on how good a level I think it is. However, I think that what actually happens is that the barometer is lowered with each fix I have to make.

So, for example, let's say I make a level which I think is a 10/10 awesome level. It can be easily backrouted, so I make one fix which only changes the level slightly; at that point, I probably think it's more like 9.5/10. Then, oh dear, it can still be backrouted so now I have to really mess with the layout; now it's an 8/10. Another backroute means a third fix, this time forcing me to use pickups or some other drastic level-ruining measure; it's now probably no more than 5 or 6/10 after having had 3 fixes, and is likely to end up getting scrapped.

In another example, I make another 10/10 level (I must be on a roll! ). An easy-to-miss backroute can be just as easily fixed, so it's a 9.5/10. Another backroute means having to add a bit of steel; oh well, I can still make it look cool so it's only gone down to 9/10. Yet another backroute means a slight change to the skillset or something being moved a few pixels; I'd consider this the final fix, and the level sits pretty at 8.5/10. If it can still be backrouted, I accept that this is the case, and maybe even embrace it (make it a talisman, or even open up the level even further). This one will be kept.

The above scenarios are obviously not exact, and can happen in different ways. What I'm really illustrating is that some levels just seem to get worse and worse with more and more backroute fixes, whereas others largely remain intact with each fix. In the former example, I'll almost certainly stick to the "maximum 3 fixes" rule and scrap the level. In the latter, I might still stick to just 3 fixes and then leave it as it is, or if I do decide to keep working on it then I'll more likely go in a totally different direction with it altogether. If that happens, I almost class it as a new level rather than a new version.

Very rarely, I might provide further fixes if I reeeeally think a level is worth it. But, we're talking 1 in 100 levels as opposed to every level.

I've never thought of it this way, with each fix lowering the overall quality of the level and the way you've quantified it, but I like the way you explained it here. Interestingly enough, I've kind of felt the same way with each fix as well, although some certainly way more than others, particularly the ones where I kept fixing it up rather than stop after a certain amount of versions. At the same time, I haven't yet gotten into the realm of accepting alternatives because, well, the designs I came up with don't really allow it, mostly due to the skillsets provided. However, as mentioned I have an open-ended level from the previous contest, as well as a couple here where I'm fine with alternatives, so I apparently started allowing other solutions starting with this contest!

As you've said, everyone is different. There seems to be a positive correlation between solving skill and tenacity when it comes to level updates, i.e. the strongest solvers (Icho, Armani, yourself) tend to release multiple versions of their levels and will think nothing of getting to version 7, 8 or even higher. The mindset seems to be that they want to challenge the other players who are equally skilled, and so nothing other than the version which only allows the intended solution will do! (Of course, I could be totally wrong here!)

I think you hit it spot on here with the ones you mentioned with being adamant of enforcing the intended solution at all costs. In my case, as I mentioned the problem is that my designs haven't really allowed for any alternatives, although some of mine in this contest do! I'll certainly be more than happy to explore and get into designs with open-ended solutions in the future, but at the same time I want to make sure they're interesting puzzle-wise. I certainly have nothing against them, and I welcome them with open arms just like I do with almost any level From what I've seen and read around here, it's easy to make either an easy or hard open-ended level, but the challenge is making them interesting too!

[DireKrow]

Icho's solutions to my R1 and R2 are acceptable alternatives. R3 is essentially the intended solution.

[Crane]

Yep, intended solution IchoTolot - well done.  A nice little classic level, as you said!

[∫tan x dx]

@Icho

Just seen your videos! R3 is perfectly acceptable, but R2 is a backroute. Updated version posted!

[IchoTolot]

Is this better?

[∫tan x dx]

@Icho

A very interesting interaction between laserer and stacker, but still a back route, I'm afraid

[IchoTolot]

Next solution.

[∫tan x dx]

@Icho

And next patch!

[IchoTolot]

This feels intended now.

[∫tan x dx]

You are indeed correct! Nicely done!

[kaywhyn]

All rightie, I've recorded my playthrough of all the contest levels. Here are the links:

Rule 1: https://youtu.be/60X_dAgTi4I

Rule 2: https://youtu.be/kQuhjw1cXNc

Rule 3: https://youtu.be/ZRCa12izYwE

My contest levels: https://youtu.be/iSN3ANILHss


I've also attached my entire replay collection, as well as replays of the intended solutions for my levels. There are two replays for WillLem's R3, one is for the gold/bronze talisman, while the other is for the silver talisman.

As a whole, I thought this collection pack had really tough levels in contrast to last few contests. In particular, the R3's took the longest to solve. Also, if even top solvers like Icho and Armani thought my levels were hard, perhaps I should consider dropping the notion that my own levels are easy, relatively speaking, to all the other ones. It seems that I badly underestimate the difficulties of my levels. This being said, DO NOT expect me to go easy on the difficulty if I ever decide to make a level pack in the future!   I think it's becoming more and more likely that I will consider making one, having been inspired and encouraged by some forum members here

R1 Feedback

Armani's Insert Coin, Choose Lemming R1V1

Nice level here involving releasing one lemming at a time to forge different parts of the level. It's clear that either the floater or the slider need to be the first ones to start. However, I think it's clear enough to see that only the slider can get to the exit, which therefore leaves the floater as the only possibility to start. The hardest part to see I thought was the platforming and then stacking to get the climber up the top of the level on the right side. I originally tried other things where the trap is, but that would always get me into trouble with saving the climber to get him into the teleporter back to the starting area. Even after I had the level pretty much all figured out, I ran into being a skill short at the end, which was due to not doing the platformer/stacker part right.

DireKrow's Infiltration R1V1

Surprisingly difficult level, where it's not obvious at all how to distribute the lemmings on the top and bottom halves. In particular, I kept thinking to use the climber to platform up the water gap at the top where the button is on the far right side, but that seems to be a complete red herring. I also kept thinking to use a platformer at the top to save a shimmier. Also thought to use a basher on the pillar at the bottom left, but then you can't get a disarmer to the trap before everyone else on the bottom right, as well as get to the button on the far bottom right except for getting the spacing between the disarmer and climber just right to get the latter past the very fast triggering teleporter. Overall, nice level and puzzle!

Kingshadow3's No Other Lemming's Gonna Do That! R1V2

Probably not as hard as Armani's or Icho's Cloud levels, but still tricky and challenging. The first half wasn't too bad, but the second half was where I struggled on various parts. In particular, I kept trying to do some very tricky timing so as to try and get to the OWW before the climber and glider go over the top, but it seems that one of them will always get into trouble before that happens. It took me a while to see that the timing isn't needed at all, and in the end my solution is almost the same as Icho's, the only difference is where I used the platformer and miner at the top, both on the left side of the OWW, as well as used a basher to stop the climber/glider from going over the top on the right side.

The Tomato Watcher's Lemsicle R1V2

I think this is the start of difficult levels from you I made the bottom harder than I needed to, where there was only one builder position to stop the climber from going into the water pit at the bottom left. It depends on how the swimmer bashes to leave the raised area to do so. I originally kept thinking to release the blocker from the right side, but that turns out to not be the best way to go about the level. The hardest part to see was just before the ice steam blower trap on the left side to bash and then build to the left. The jumper section at the end is a bit repetitive for my liking, but that's just me, where I'm not generally a fan of levels where the same skill has to be assigned in a short amount of time

WillLem's It's All A Matter Of Spacing R1V1

Surprisingly tricky level despite being a somewhat small and short level. I like how you used the neutral Lemminas here! I also like how the title is an homage to "It's All A Matter Of Timing" from ONML, although the skillset has no connection to it, as it's not a builders only level I like how the updraft is used to get everyone down safely, as well as to slow the descent of the floater to give the digger enough time to get through the floor. I have a jumper leftover, but that's because I had the worker Lemmina jump over the gap before platforming. Otherwise, doing it from the other side I would need to interrupt her with the jumper so she doesn't turn around.

R2 Feedback

Apjjm's Roiling Clouds R2V1

I spotted that extending a basher with platfomers needs to be done almost right away, but how to do so was very hard. I tried many things before I was successful, such as trying to go over the top. I even tried to see if I could bash underneath the level to release everyone, but the basher would always stop before I want him to, and combine that with laserering so that he could continue down the slope. I was able to save multiple skills in contrast to Icho, who just had a platformer leftover. Apparently it's possible to solve without using either the walker or blocker too! Perhaps this can be a talisman

Armani's Tightrope Planet R2V2

This is very similar to a Cloud level you posted in the random level sharing topic, so this was a quick solve for me. However, I did try building up to the platform at the start and mining in such a way to break away the staircase and free the blocker, but this would always result in the crowd arriving where the worker is too soon. Instead, it's a red herring completely.

Crane's Looks Simple Enough R2V1

Nice level. The hardest part here was to see how to place the blocker to trap the crowd and to release him with a digger later. I like how the digger is assigned the climber to get himself back out later. I thought to maybe extend a basher through both OWWs, but this doesn't work as you won't have enough skills to solve the level.

DireKrow's Steep Beescent R2V1

I consider this your hardest level in this contest. There were plenty of things I've tried that didn't work. In particular, sometimes gliders would go over obstacles and get into danger or the crowd arrives too soon and splats or gets into danger. It was a bit annoying at the end to think to have the level solved but then the gliders shoot past the exit because of the builder staircase, hence it's necessary to stop him early with a skill. I use a miner to cancel out a digger at the bottom. The level reminds me very much of "Abysmal Descent" from your DireKrow files.

Kingshadow3's Atmospheric Breach R2V2

The main challenge here was to get past the updrafts. I do have a platformer leftover thanks to taking advantage of the digger mechanics

tan x dx's Not Much To Work With R2V6

Very nice level and solution! In its current form, this was surprisingly hard. I backrouted an earlier version similar to Icho. It took me a very long time to see the stacker and laserer trick in order to step onto the stack at its maximum height. Eventually, I saw that the skill shadow of the stacker reaches a pixel above the OWW, and that's when I realized that you can platform over to the barrels from it. As a result, this reminds me very much of the level Non Sequitar from LemRunner, except a basher is used to be able to platform. I probably made the time limit tighter than it needs to be though. I kept thinking to send everyone to the right exit, or to destroy terrain before assigning a glider to get to the bottom left exit, but these would just leave you a skill short or get everyone into danger before the path is ready.

The Tomato Watcher's A Roundabout Trip R2V5

Very nice design and visuals! Didn't take too long to figure out, although I think I could had avoided the blocker if I had platformed lower. I also tried other things, such as bashing the floating platforms at the bottom to release the crowd, but this would take too much builders.

WillLem's Minimalemism R2V1

Nice level, although I haven't seen the splat pad in this style before. Doesn't take too long to figure out. I saved 1 over the requirement

R3 Feedback

Apjjm's A Digital Switchover R3V4

I really love the design here, especially the computer half of the level! I found this level to be hard but it's a really good one. The part that took me a while was the platformer pickup on the right outside of the computer. I sacrificed a climber there. Took me a while to figure out how to contain either group. I probably made my solution far harder than it needed to be. Good puzzle involving the switching of the groups to the other side/exit.

Armani's Underwater Hijackers R3V1

Another great design and hard level. I consider this one your hardest level out of your other contest entries in this collection pack. Sure, I thought R1 was hard too, but it wasn't that bad. I figured out the left side very quickly with bombing and then digging, but what took a very long time was how to get inside the submarine in the most efficient manner. Yes, I tried going in from the far bottom right where it's possible with just one bomber, but then you can't release the neutrals. I really like how the cloners are used here: For a laserer, and for the basher twice, once on the original and another time on the clone. Also using a laserer tunnel to keep a basher going. Seems like it should work, if it works for a fencer tunnel. Some of my earlier attempts had me fiddling around with the right side at the top, but it should had been clear that it's pointless, as you cannot get low enough to do the rest of the level if you do due to the water blocking access everywhere.

DireKrow's Ancient Lemmarine R3V2

Surprisingly difficult level where you will not get the level solved if you don't take the intended route. I kept trying to extend a basher along the bottom with builder staircases, but then I would run into problems with reaching the far rightmost button. It's not possible to jump to climb to get to it without using two builders near the exit. The hardest part to see was bashing to the left in the starting area and then release them with a basher to the right at the bottom. Also building at the top and then bashing to the right to go over the top. Otherwise, I kept trying things around the middle like bashing twice and/or building/jumping to get the rightmost button, but this would result in too many skills being used. It's interesting how you and Armani had the same idea of making a submarine as your object for R3

Kingshadow3's Mad Dad's Chemical Research Dept R3V2

Very hard level that took me a long time before I got it solved. Nice visuals, but unfortunately I wasn't too much of a fan of this level due to the many nuisances in the level. In particular, stopping climbers from going out to the left and hence using too many jumpers, as well as the lasers not being friendly for builders to make further forward progress. Then again, I did make my solution very complicated with a lot of heavy timing and pixel precision

tan x dx's The Treachery of Lemmings R3V1

Surprisingly difficult level despite being short. I originally tried to send 3 climbers through the needles trap, but as it turns out even if you have lemmings stack on top of each other it will always kill 2 lemmings. So, I guess that's the major difference with the lizard trap from the Rock tileset, where it will be possible to just have one lemming die to it when stacked behind each other, but not so for the needles trap. Even if this did work, you would lose 1 too many. Nice level which uses the interesting mechanic and interaction of a slider and stoner. I already know this trick from playing Uncharted, I just didn't think or see to use it for a long time in order to resolve the problem of turning back to the left with the normal lemmings.

The Tomato Watcher's The Claaaaaw... R3V1

Nice "Toy Story" reference here, and it's one of my favorite Pixar films! Somewhat hard, although the hardest part to see here was to use two jumpers at the start to get the basher pickups. I have a basher leftover, but that's because I used timing to get the climber past the teleporter Even then, this doesn't look like a backroute, so I would think it's fine here

WillLem's Bosom Buddies R3V1

When I first saw this level, I was thinking in my mind, he did not just go there Nice boobies, although I can't imagine the pain a woman would have with melons that huge. Although I don't care for talismans in general, the level's short enough that I decided to go for them. As a result, I attached two replays, one for both the gold/bronze and another for the silver.

[Apjjm]

I have put together a quick video with the inteded solutions for my R2 & R3 levels: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0eo9cwJ55o

@kaywhyn - Great solutions to both my R2 & R3 levels - The R2 level uses the intended element in the solution and saving both the blocker & walker was nice. The R3 whilst not the intended path is certainly acceptable. The way you contained the crowds was very different to my solution, and I am pleasently surprised as to how many variations I have seen in solutions to this one.

@ichotolot - Great solves for both levels too . The R2 level uses the intended element - the way you used the blocker was very similar to the initial concept of the level but I ended up adding a different skill instead to make things easier to execute. The R3 solution again much like kaywhyn doesn't handle the crowds as intended but certainly uses the skills in an interesting way so is an acceptable alternative - the only part of this solution that I might have considered changing is how the platformer is used after the pickup-skill beyond the monitor - though I think it is too late in the contest now for me to want to make changes (and also I kinda like that this is a tricky level with a variety of different solutions).

[kaywhyn]

@Apjjm

Just posting to confirm that a save 56 for your R3 is indeed possible if the right exit has a limit of 26, not the left exit as you mentioned in the video description. Replay attached.