Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)

[Armani]

@tanx
basically same solution but I adjusted a bit to the latest version

[kaywhyn]

@Armani and Apjjm

R3: Apologies that it took me a while to get back to either of you on your solutions to my R3, but I honestly needed to distance myself from the contest levels, my own included. I was stressing out over these solutions that are backroutes to my R3, and indeed especially in Armani's case the second solution is closer than the first, but all 3 solutions are backroutes. For V5, I've shifted some terrain around some more, as well as added a couple more flamethrowers. When in doubt, block and kill them with fire! Joking aside, once again I'm not super confident about this new version, as it's so hard to backroute fix against the likes of Armani With this newest update, it should be much harder to figure out how to get down safely, as almost anywhere you go the Lemmings will encounter a ka-splatty end Even if it still doesn't 100% force the solution I have in mind, I would think it at least gets much closer than it has been. Let's see, though. Fingers crossed

[The Tomato Watcher]

@Apjjm Perfectly acceptable, and actually decently close to my original solution.

I'm pretty happy with this level being somewhat open-ended, especially since (so far) it seems that no matter the route, all skills must be used; it's just where they're used that changes. And I think that's pretty cool.

[WillLem]

Finally got around to checking replays and having a go at these levels! Note that I didn't have a massive amount to time to spend on solving, I was able to give these about 10 minutes each. Comments:

Rule 1

Insert Coin Choose Lemming - Way too inaccessible for me, unfortunately. I tried a few things but nothing seems to work. I can get a lemming down the main drop safely but can't find a way to both secure the drop and get that lemming back over to the teleporter. No-solve.
Infiltration - Got closer with this one but couldn't solve it within the time I had available. I'll probably come back to this one because I could see a few possibilities.
The Four Corners Of Cloud Seven - Another one I can see a solution for but didn't have enough time to put it together. I'll come back to this one.
No Other Lemming's Gonna Do That! - Managed to make some progress with this but kept running out of skills. Another one I'll likely come back to for a final attempt.
Lemsicle - I thought I had this one cracked, but I can't see any way to get in position to bash underneath the blocker so this one's ultimately a no-solve.
Sports-tacular Athletic Rescue Mission - I'm happy to report that I managed to rescue 2 lemmings on this level, so it's the closest I've come to solving any of these! I'll certainly come back and have another look at this one.

@Armani @Apjjm - Your rule 1 solutions are intended. The additional Jumper is to allow for slight variations, but you both managed not to need it for your solutions. Nicely done!

[Armani]

attached my new solution to the final level.
looks good although I'm not 100% sure

[kaywhyn]

@Armani

Getting closer again, it seems, but I can't have you shortcutting the left side the way you did, which is similar to Apjjm's solution Looks like I thought the fixes I made to one part of the level I thought would take care of that, but I will have to make sure to kill more birds with one stone instead of just focusing on one part of the level to fix when backroute fixing my own levels. For V6, more fire! It's the only change. Luckily I don't think the addition of it made the left side look too out of place, the placements of everything else just happened to already be perfect My own intended solution does not break as well, so I didn't need to tweak anything in my replay.

[Armani]

The basic idea is similar but now I use shimmiers to actually let some lemmings shimmy something

[kaywhyn]

@Armani

R3 - Your solution is now about 98% intended. I've uploaded a V7 that I think will do the trick now. A sigma symbol is added, along with some more traps/water. I've also locked the RR to prevent any funny shenanigans you might try with it The number of lemmings and number to be saved were also reduced.

[Armani]

resolved

[kaywhyn]

Armani

R3 - This is definitely getting restless on my part. One final change for V8, which is shifted the tilde symbol over, added more flamethrowers, and made the shimmiers pickups. If it still doesn't force the solution I have in mind, then there isn't really anything else I can do to fix it up, I fear.

[Armani]

This solution is very similar to what you said was 98% intended

[kaywhyn]

@Armani

R3: First off, let me start by apologizing for my vent in my previous post. I've just been getting very frustrated with repeatedly applying fixes and thinking I've finally got the level backroute proof, only for you to keep coming back with backroutes because I cannot backroute fix against from the likes of super talented solving people like you. As a result, my frustrations prevented me from fixing my level with a clear mind and conscience. I don't know about you experiencing these emotions whenever you need to repeatedly fix backroutes for your own levels, but this is exactly what can happen after a certain amount of different versions of the level. At least for me it gets frustrating after a while when I need to keep on fixing up a level. However, that's no reason for me to take out my anger on you. In addition, you're not the only person who has repeatedly backrouted my levels, though you do hold the record for sending me the most backroute solutions out of anyone who has played my levels. In any case, rather than get frustrated by it, I should be thankful (and I am, thank you for being persistent in resolving too) for you sending me such solutions, as it goes to show how I didn't carefully consider every approach a solver such as yourself might take to the level. It also tells me that I'm apparently not as good at backroute fixing as I thought I be, which means I should heavily consider getting someone to pre-test them or I just need to come up with better designs and solutions which aren't as prone to backrouting, as magnificent as my puzzles are. Or, learn to accept alternative solutions to my levels.

Second, I think I finally see now which skills have been the major cause of the level being plagued by backroutes. So, for V9, as much as I hate to, I made both gliders, a shimmier, and a builder pickups. I've also moved the shimmier pickup to a different location. I honestly hate using pickups myself to fix backroutes, which is why I try to avoid using them for so long, because my main concern is that they make the level easier than I intended. At the same time, I think based on feedback I've received from you for my levels, I've been proven wrong about my own levels being a lot easier in spite of the pickups.

Finally, if the intended solution is found for V9, I may consider fixing up the level visually in a future update, as some of the things that were added in earlier versions might not even be needed anymore and honestly they started making my level look more of a mess

[Armani]

No problem!
It also gets frustrating for me when my level gets backrouted multiple times, especially when the backroute comes from something I overlooked completely. There are several levels that come to my mind but the level that was most frustrating to fix was Yawning Crevase from Uncharted, I can't even remember how many times I had to fix + I ended up accepting the alternative solution that I really don't fond of Nowadays I tend to be more generous on accepting alternative solutions if they are not lets say, totally broken. And when it comes to specific 1-solution levels, I also tend to make them with small skillset. That's the one of the reasons I admire Icho's ability to make huge size+big skillset puzzles. Look at the winner of the last contest! It's a really huge level that has big skillset and complicated solution, yet Icho somehow did succeed in enforcing the intended solution in one shot.

I attached my new solution. I think this is intended now The normal lemming falls down right after the second glider lemming puts down the first platformer stack and this feels good. Also this time I contain the right crowd so I don't have to do all the hackish timing things with canceling skills with shimmiers.

[kaywhyn]

I attached my new solution. I think this is intended now The normal lemming falls down right after the second glider lemming puts down the first platformer stack and this feels good. Also this time I contain the right crowd so I don't have to do all the hackish timing things with canceling skills with shimmiers.

Finally, that's 100% intended! I'm happy to hear that you enjoyed my R3. Based on the feedback you gave me on Discord, I will release an update not to block your solution since it's intended now, but that will remove some things that are no longer needed, as I hate how it has now become more of a visual mess than it should be I might also think about possibly reverting some pickup changes, but I'll need to think about it some more.

Spoiler

I really like how the timing works out perfectly, such as laying that one platformer brick in order to save the 4th lemming from one of the right entrances on time, and I think you're right that the locked RR does that perfectly. Also, I'm quite fond of using a platformer to raise the wall on the right side high enough to contain the far right entrances, it simply appears that I didn't consider that the shimmiers could be abused to skill cancel and make the timing work out so that it's not necessary to. Finally, I like how it's half you keep the crowd moving and the other half you contain the crowds: Left entrances you DON'T contain the crowd, while the far right entrances you do, at least in the intended solution As you saw, it was very hard to enforce the platformer to contain them, but that's because I didn't use pickups to fix that part, and you already know that I hate using pickups as a way to fix backroutes

Thanks again for letting me know that the solution's still very well-hidden despite the pickups! I was worried that they make the solution way too obvious now, but once again I've been proven wrong there, and you were the perfect person to ask feedback for on that

No problem!
It also gets frustrating for me when my level gets backrouted multiple times, especially when the backroute comes from something I overlooked completely. There are several levels that come to my mind but the level that was most frustrating to fix was Yawning Crevase from Uncharted, I can't even remember how many times I had to fix + I ended up accepting the alternative solution that I really don't fond of Nowadays I tend to be more generous on accepting alternative solutions if they are not lets say, totally broken. And when it comes to specific 1-solution levels, I also tend to make them with small skillset. That's the one of the reasons I admire Icho's ability to make huge size+big skillset puzzles. Look at the winner of the last contest! It's a really huge level that has big skillset and complicated solution, yet Icho somehow did succeed in enforcing the intended solution in one shot.

Ah, good to know that it isn't just me who gets frustrated after a certain point with so many versions of a level for backroute fixing. Still, as I said before that's no reason for me to take out my frustration on you, as you were very helpful in showing me different ways that it could still be backrouted that I didn't think about or consider a player might try.

Thanks again for all the replays/feedback!

[The Tomato Watcher]

A hodgepodge of replays; a couple of them are most definitely backroutes.

Armani's "Insert Coin, Choose Lemming"

I absolutely loved this level! It's got such a unique and interesting concept, where only one worker can be out at a time, and you've gotta figure out the order in which they go in addition to everything else about the solution. That's so cool! And this level gave me one of, if not the biggest eureka moment I've ever had playing Lemmings when I realized where the Slider needed to go.

DireKrow's "Infiltration"

Neat little level. Very much an efficiency puzzle, where figuring out what to do isn't too difficult, but figuring out how to do it is a different story. I liked how the two groups of lemmings end up reuniting to finish up the bottom area. And figuring out how to space the lemmings properly so the Disarmer can do his work was a nice challenge as well.

IchoTolot's "The Four Corners of Cloud Seven"

A nice level where you gotta figure out how to get everybody where they need to go, how to make them all useful beyond that, and how to keep them from dying. I particularly liked how you keep the Climber alive.

Kindshadow3's "Atmospheric Breach"

This is 1000% cheese. Seriously, my solution is just a completely janky mess, with abusing Digger mechanics, a pixel-perfect assignment, and a leftover Platformer. I quite liked the music though!

tan x dx's "Not much to work with..."

Pretty sure this is cheese. I didn't use the Glider, and my solution uses an unintuitive pixel-perfect assignment, shortly followed by a frame-perfect assignment. Yeah... Move the exit a single pixel left and my plan is foiled.