Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)

[kaywhyn]

@Armani

R3: Oh, you sneak It's definitely difficult to backroute fix from the likes of you. For V3, I've shifted the far left rope trap over to the right slightly, as well as replaced one of the rope traps with a fire trap. Solution will likely become more obvious now, but probably more precise than I wanted it to be at the same time

[Apjjm]

@Armani - this is quite a nice solution but still avoids some of the things I ideally would like to see in a solution, so will probably be updating the level a little more.

[IchoTolot]

@Armani

One solution is exactly intended and the other an acceptable alternative. Good job!

Sadly to remove that precision on that one assignment I need to place additional tiles - so that is reserved for after the contest.

[The Tomato Watcher]

@Armani Still not quite. Your solution misses a few of the things I wanted you to do, and as a whole, it stems from a dumb oversight on my part.

V4 is out now. I shifted and swapped some terrain around, and I removed one of the Climbers. My original intended solution used both, but I now realize that from V1, the second Climber is completely unnecessary, and there's no good way to enforce its usage without drastically modifying the level or adding an unnecessarily strict time limit. So it's gone! This was a much less easy fix than V2, let me tell you.

[Armani]

resolved updated levels (two replays for A Roundabout Trip)

A Roundabout Trip

My second solution seems intended as I used all the skills.

A Digital Switchover

No leftover skills this time! Hope my solution has some of the things you would like to see

The Lemmings Calculator

I used most of the skill this time(but not all ) The level is much better now and requires careful thinking on how to let lemmings fall down safely.

[Apjjm]

@Armani That is much closer to the intended solution, and a clever solve. I was very tempted to keep this but it feels just far enough away that I have updated things again . I think this update makes things a bit harder so am thinking about dropping save requirement down to 54 + adding talisman for 55, will think about this.

Potential spoiler on intended solution (but pretty vague)

Spoiler

The main thing I'm looking for in the intended solution or acceptable solution is how the two halfs impact eachother, I've felt the sliders haven't done quite enough yet.

[Armani]

Well, the update made the level a bit harder but now I have more leftover skill

[kaywhyn]

@Armani

R3: Getting closer but not quite there yet, as you correctly guessed. For V4, I shifted the pi symbol over, as well as the trapdoor that's to the right of the flamethrower over some more, although the main source of the backroute was the pi symbol. I still don't have a hopeful feeling that this will finally enforce what I have in mind, but let's see. You're not that far off from the intended route, though.

Thanks so much for the compliment on this level! Definitely requires far more thought on the route to take, but certainly nothing you can't handle. Thanks also for the replays and your perseverance through the multiple updates!  

[Apjjm]

@Armani thanks for resolving multiple times - your solve is incredibly close to the solution I found and is certainly an acceptable variation - great solve !

Spoiler

The jumper you had leftover allows sending a slider ahead to avoid needing to find the platformer timing with the monitor crowd. I think it is possible to complete this level with a slider and blocker leftover (If a backroute appears with that extra blocker I will probably re-add the gap under the plug again).

In general there are quite a few transpositions of skill assignments that work on this level, but it feels like any solution that does the following is acceptable:

• The sliders should handle the lower pillar area & cross-over the climber crowd to the computer when neither exit route is completed
• The climbers should solve the pillar using the constructive skill assignments you used
• The exits should be used in the order you used them

In the earlier iterations I was trying to avoid needing to assign a stacker at the climber pillar. However, I didn't realise a jumper covers the same vertical height as two stackers, which opened up ways to delay the crowds "switching over" and how that otherwise complicates grabbing the pickup skills.

[The Tomato Watcher]

@Armani Second replay is indeed intended. Apparently I didn't test every possible pixel to assign the Builder on. V5 is out and should hopefully enforce all the tricks I want.

[Armani]

two replays for The Lemmings Calculator
The pi symbol seems still problematic.

[Apjjm]

I've attached my rule 3 solutions. I found this quite a fun rule to design for - lots of creative looking levels on this one.

1-A Digital Switchover

Spoiler

My level

This solution has a couple of leftover skills. There are quite a few ways you can swap skill placements and still find a solution that works out (though it may take an extra blocker or jumper). I do wonder if it is possible to save the other blocker given a more permissive exit. I couldn't find a solution that manages this though - otherwise it might have been a talisman.

The idea to do a computer themed level actually came from the music which I heard before designing anything. I thought the monitor shape would be an interesting challenge to try and make with the original styles, and i was pleasently surprised how useful the eraser peices were in making the shape - they usually are deliberately not visible!

2-Underwater Hijackers

Spoiler

I found this surprisingly tricky & I ended up needing to come back to this one. I realised quite early on I needed to send at least one lemming down the left of the level, but assigning the laserers in the submarine had quite a few configurations. At the end of my first attempt I had a solution that was one short of the save requirement because I completely missed that I could clone the 2nd laserer - Fortunately I spotted my mistake quite quickly when revisiting!

Great job on the visuals for this one . The solution on the interior of the submare was fun to work out and the combination of laser, cloner and basher was fun to execute. In terms of other feedback, I do wonder if the long digger assignment could be adjusted somewhat into an alternative terrain configuration that is quicker to navigate.

3-Ancient Lemmarine

Spoiler

Nice puzzle! The limited destructive skills really force you to be effecient with the path the crowd takes on this level. I completely overlooked bashing through the top of the submarine which meant a lot of my attempts were a skill short. I ended up trying to make continuing a basher through the bottom of the submarine work - though I probably should have realised this was not the inteded path as It avoided the big ramp in the middle of the level. From the updates topic I am guessing this was something that was fixed already, but it would be nice if some of the gaps were widened a bit more to make it extra clear you can't extend a basher with a single builder.

Great work with the visuals on this level

4-Starlight Pinball Zone

Spoiler

Very nice looking level & idea for the object! I like how the skill assignments (in particular the glider) feel a bit like sending pin-balls through the machine too. The solution to this followed a clean logical path, where as soon as I realised I should drop the crowd through the pinball area the other overflowing lemmings could be assigned the necessary skills along the way to make sure they got to places in time to save the crowd. This was a very fun level to play and solve.

5-Mad Dads Chemical Research Dept.

Spoiler

Excellent job with the bubble tileset - the preview image alone on this looks fantastic!

I think I probably found this the most difficult of the rule 3 levels - despite the large number of available skills they can very quickly run out. The area on this level that gave me by far the most trouble was getting past the clamp-stand effeciently.  I felt there had to be a reason the upper edge of the clamp-stand wasn't steel - though I do wonder if the steel could be raised a bit to make the jumper assignment more obvious that it could work - as spotting that you need to do this to let a slider past is already pretty well hidden!

6-The Treachery of Lemmings

Spoiler

Nice job with the curves on the pipe shape - I imagine that took quite a while to eraser out!

My first attempts on this tried to wedge the neutrals & lemmings together within the hatch by immediately assigning a stoner and trying to stack on either side, but too many lemming snuck out for that to work. I then realised I could send the last half of the crowd over - but dismissed this approach for quite a while, as I didn't realise I could use the stackers to get back over the miner tunnel.

7-The Claaaaaw...

Spoiler

I really like the choice of object(s) on this level. I thought it was really creative that machine claws were holding the pickup skills and that the item drop point was made functional by use of a teleporter

This was a fun level to solve, with the main difficulty for me being around when & how to get into the 2nd claw machine to collect the skills. There is a bit of subtlety to this, as the lemming still needs to be able to climb up afterwards to collect the digger!

8-Bosom Buddies

Spoiler

I wasn't expecting this terrain layout!

I decided to go for the gold talisman on this one - I've probably said before in level feedback that its refreshing to see levels that offer multiple distinct interesting solutions.

9-The Lemming Calculator

Spoiler

I know you've said before on discord that you are stronger in making level puzzles over the visuals, but I think this looks great

In terms of the solution, It really help to not overthink the start of this - instead I let the lemmings do what it felt they natural-ly needed to do. My first attempts tried to send the right crowd down the outside of the calculator, but this quickly got lost in something complex - and I figured the solution would be rational. It turns out the letters for the left crowd were integral to the solution, and it was important to differentiate where the platformers could be placed in order to effeciently solve for x allowing me to substitute in the spare skills elsewhere in equation.

Math puns aside, this was a satisfying level to solve and was a good challenge!

[Armani]

@Apjjm

Perfectly acceptable

Spoiler

There's one thing different between your solution and mine: I sent 4 lemmings to the left(you sent 3) and I used a bomber to break the wall in the digger pit.(you used a laserer) And with the leftover laserer, I saved the blocker by releasing him from below with the leftover laserer.(You didn't use a bomber at the digger pit and this is why you don't have to save the blocker!)
Overall, you took the intended route and your solution has all the intended tricks in it

In terms of other feedback, I do wonder if the long digger assignment could be adjusted somewhat into an alternative terrain configuration that is quicker to navigate.

That's a very good point and I 100% agree with your opinion. At first, I considered making the wall hollow and giving several floaters instead of one digger so you don't have to do the long digger assignment. But that was not satisfying for me visual wise. Luckily we have the fast forward and time skip buttons in Neolemmix at least

[∫tan x dx]

@Armani

Spoiler

Rule 2 - I've uploaded V3 of this level to prevent a backroute from Apjjm. A good attempt, though
Rule 3 - Nice solution!

@Apjjm

Spoiler

Rule 2 - That's a backroute, I'm afraid!
Rule 3 - Nice solution!

Apologies for my delayed responses!

[Kingshadow3]

@Apjjm

Your solution to my rule 3 wasn't exactly intended. I've updated my level to V2.