Level Design Contest #24 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)

[IchoTolot]

Sadly, I have to disqualify a level due to violation of rule 1c (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=2246.0):

Eric Derkovits's "Save Me Once More"

I was made aware that said level had a public prior release in "Angry Lemmings" as "Mayhem 29": https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4965.msg90037#msg90037

There were some changes: The decorations changed, buttons, traps and extra steel were introduced, but it shares the exact same skillset and general layout and apart from the decoration changes the changes fell more like backroute fixes.

As a result:

I will leave the level inside the contest pack, but it won't be accounted for in the voting.

Sorry for only catching this only now and not before the start of the playing phase, but sadly I cannot know + remember every single level in every pack release.

Thanks to the person who made me aware of this and sorry for the inconveniance.

[IchoTolot]

Due to a personal request I also removed the level from the pack now.

[IchoTolot]

As things seem to slow down a bit, I will try and record my playthrough of the contest levels this weekend.

[IchoTolot]

Alright here is my playthrough of all contest levels.

Videos will be released in about 1 hr 30 min (6 pm UTC).

Rule 1: https://youtu.be/CuKf_YHQyZo

Rule 2 Part 1: https://youtu.be/h8_73xvOwUo

Rule 2 Part 2: https://youtu.be/7dLYZqJxiQs

Rule 3 Part 1: https://youtu.be/qgJAjiISFhM

Rule 3 Part 2: https://youtu.be/bVNBYRtit2o

Icho's Own Levels: https://youtu.be/D_7IY72GoC0

Replays are also attached!

One remark regarding KingShadows R2 level (the library one):

It seems the level unintentionally uses a currently bugged slider mechanic. This will be patched out with the next big NL release.

It revolves around a slider not turning around after an attempted slide at the edge of a builder, because the gap in which he should go into is quite small and right above the ground.

See the following topic for details: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5826.0

I also highlighted and explained in the video how to easily fix this by extending/moving a few terrain pieces by a couple of pixels. So no big hassle fixing this.

[Kingshadow3]

I've patched my levels again, removing backroutes as well as fixing my R2 level so that it should (hopefully) work with future NL releases.

[kaywhyn]

@Icho

R1: The first solution is indeed 100% intended, the second one is a backroute as you correctly guessed. For V3, I added some terrain to block off what you did at the end A confirmation that you can't do what you did in your backroute solution in this new version would be nice

Spoiler

You're absolutely correct that the Dolly Dimple backwards builder is the main trick for the level Another key point is to realize that you cannot build from the right side, as you'll always stop a pixel short to reach the exit. However, it appears that I failed to take into account that you can let the lemming walk for a bit before building. Hence, to completely enforce that the player must build from the left side, I added some terrain so that it still looks appealing but you unfortunately cannot reach the exit from the right side because the builder will stop short, no matter how much digging down the pillar you do before cancelling.

R2: Your solution is 100% intended. Well done! I am curious if you think this is a hard level despite the pickups, though

Spoiler

For a moment, I got really scared that you were going to backroute the level when you sent up the clone up the left side, as that was the part that I was trying so hard to stop Armani from using, but alas I failed spectacularly there for 10 versions! However, you both thought the hardest part was cloning the builder 3 times to make a wall, i.e, a blocker substitute. When you were trying to figure out how to save a blocker, at some point I screamed, "You know what's needed Icho, you just haven't realized it yet. You enforced this trick in one of your United levels!" Also, I found it interesting that you learned the release of a blocker with a nearby bomber trick from an LP2 level. I don't recall any level from the pack that requires it, though

Both you and Armani also thought the bottom left opening was a design error. It is not, actually! Think "The Glacier Station" from your Reunion pack! Many people thought it was for decoration, when in fact it's necessary for the solution. It's the exact same thing here. It's completely intentional to stop the cloned miner Here, I could had avoided all the version updates by putting either pickups or a button in the little cave, but I didn't want to make it super obvious that you need to do so. Therefore, I left in the red herring of going up the left side so that if the player does attempt to take it, you're not going to have enough to solve the level. Or, you'll lose too many lemmings as a result.

I also hated to make the bombers and blockers pickups, as I felt the solution was way more obvious as a result, but Armani has told me otherwise. He has said the level is still very hard despite the pickups, so looks like I've been proven wrong about the solution being more obvious.

R3: Acceptable solution. As you might had guessed, this is an open-ended level, so I will accept almost any solution here,

Spoiler

As long as you mine from the right to get the lemmings up, anything goes here. You also somewhat overcomplicated the end part, as there is actually a tiny ledge that a climber can get up on in order to bash higher than on ground level like you did on the left side However, your solution is fine.

The level title is a reference to Insane Steve's level "The Annoying 1-Pixel Gap," as if you are provided even 1 builder it will be an automatic solve by simply building over the gap due to how the entrance and exit are on opposite sides of the gap. Thus, it is a no builders level. The rule here was "make a level with no constructive skills, i.e, no builders, platformers, and stackers." I decided to make a level with a similar concept, just with about half the amount of each skill. Only thing is that it's not exactly on the floor, as it's in the air, and so the title doesn't quite fit here

This was originally a 5-of-everything level, similar to your Temple of Escher level from a few contests ago, but based on feedback I got from Armani I decided to reduce it to a 4-of-everything. In this way, there isn't as much degrees of freedom that the former skillset allows while increasing the challenge somewhat. There are ways to save plenty of skills on this level.

Yes, I agree with you that the Dirt tileset is one of the harder ones to work with, especially in regards to making levels look nice with it. Even by my admittance I don't like the appearance, as it looks quite bare without all the grass, roots, and bones, for example. At the same time, I did hastily put the level together, and at some point I got annoyed with putting in the decoration, so that's on me there  

[Apjjm]

I did a bit of an impromptu stream and had a go at the Rule 1 Levels and was able to solve 4 of 5 so far. I enjoyed all the levels I played so great job

Lemmings In a Rave - Armani

Spoiler

My solution had a climber leftover. I tried at first to use the bottom half the level but couldn't quite keep enough skills leftover, until I realised I could contain the crowd at the top instead. This is a sneaky one if what I did is intended - as I really wanted to bounce a tunnel off that forcefield on the edge of the level to start with.

Starstruck - Ichotolot (not solved yet)

Spoiler

This one has me completely stuck so far! I can't figure out how to save enough builders whilst also containing the crowd. I did manage to get one slider out but I looks like I need a way to sneak a lot more than that out. This is a really elegant looking level though and seems very tricky!

OttoLicho's Sprudel Squires - Kingshadow3

Spoiler

I managed a solution with one digger left-over, but I think that might be used to make the last part not as precsie maybe? If what I did here is indeed the intended solution then this is really nice level.

And now, the Incredible Shimmier - The Tomato Watcher

Spoiler

This was a nice level without being massively difficult - but it has a little twist at the end with how to get the crowd down safely. I do wonder if there could have been some terrain added to the pit area to reduce the builder count a bit.

Shimmier Lab Rules - Kaywhyn

Spoiler

Really fun level to play, and gave a very nice progression to the solve. I found various bits of the puzzle quite early on but wasn't able to put things together until realising how to set things up at the bottom of the level giving a really satisfying solve.

[kaywhyn]

@Apjjm Your solution is 100% intended. Nice job! I'm happy to hear that you enjoyed this level. I only wish I had been able to see the entire stream live when you were playing it. If it's still available later, I'll likely take a look.

Spoiler

The Dolly Dimple backwards builder is the main trick here, as well as seeing that you can only reach the exit from the left side. If you try doing it from the right, you won't be able to reach the exit, though I forgot to take into account that you can simply let the lemming walk for a bit and then build, which is what Icho used to his advantage here after he found the intended solution. Hence, that's why you see the pieces of terrain that are a bit out of place near the exit.

Regarding Icho's R1, yea, from my pre-testing of his levels, I found it to be a difficult one, but his hardest one is his R2. Again, I didn't see any of your attempt at his R1, so I can't see how far or how close you were in getting it solved. Nevertheless, the fact that you solved every R1 except for one is quite impressive. Very well done! Looks like you haven't lost touch for one bit in your solving prowess

[Armani]

@ichotolot

R1-backroute / R2-100%intended / R3-100%intended for Red solution and close enough for Green solution

R1 : The laserer have to be used in more useful and creative way Hopefully this updated will be able to enforce that.
R2 : 100% intended I watched the vids and it seems like you figure out the solution even before you actually tried the level! Impressive logical deduction as always!
R3 : Red solution is perfectly intended. You used every skill in correct position and timing! Green solution is acceptable. Your solution is identical to kaywhyn's. My solution include clumping up the two lemmings to pass the trap and you managed to solve the level with out doing that hence you was able to save one more than required.



@Apjjm
Wow you successfully ignore the entire bottom part of the level
No! I cannot allow that

[IchoTolot]

@Armani

I mentioned in the very first part that this time I took like 5-15 mins to take a look at and think about every level before recording. Not playing but just messure out the situation and plan a bit. This way there is less "downtime" in my playthrough. Especially with many hard levels it will otherwise turn out to be quite a lengthy drawn-out series.

And especially in your R2 this has helped a lot!

Examples:

Spoiler

- I spotted the most likely usage position for the shimmier narrowing down the path for the swimmer.

- 2 platformers were  locked to the exit area and it seemed very unlikely that I could use the other 2 at the bottom as well ---> blocker.

- Through observation I spotted a laserer path that avoids most water pits.

[Kingshadow3]

I've updated my rule 1 again.

[Apjjm]

Had a play through the first 5 levels of rule 2, some first impressions:

Gotta Swim Fast - Armani (solved)

Spoiler

Really nice level & it looks great too . My solution feelt like the intended solution (so hopefully it is!) - the way the crowd is released at the bottom is very clean.

Violent Changes - IchoTolot (not solved)

Spoiler

I think I have indentified where the worker lemmings need to be as well as the path the crowd will take, though I'm not quite clear yet on how the workers will all get to where they need to go. I haven't felt completely stuck on this as there feels like there is always a part of the level to look at and make progress which is nice for what is certainly a difficult level! I imagine when the peices fit together this will be a very nice solution.

Silence in the library - Kingshadow3 (not solved)

Spoiler

I have managed to reach all the pickup-skills with the shimmiers and a climber working together, but am at a bit of a roadblock on how to get the shimmiers up to that very top section above the climber waiting area effeciently. I like the idea of having the two different groups cross paths and go to different ends of the map!

BoLEMian RhapsoLEMdy - Mantha16 (solved)

Spoiler

This feels like a more open-ended level and was a nice change of difficulty but still not necessarily easy, as the bridgers are still quite constrained but you do have a bit of freedom in how you get around the obstacles. Good level

Aerial Antics - NieSch (almost solved)

Spoiler

I got very close to a solution on this one I think - I ended up using an extra basher on the start of the level which meant I was a skill short to be able to turn around in order to build the bridge back from the other side. This is a really nice level, though it is a bit gutting to have to do all the builder assignments again because that first side of the level wasn't quite right.

[Armani]

@Apjjm

That's a slight variation of the intended solution well done
You can compare your solution to mine. See the attachment

Spoiler

You platformed over the gap and used laserer and canceled it with a jumper.
The intended solution uses laserer without platforming and uses a jumper to the worker lemming in to the laser tunnel and lets him platform the gap at the top.

[IchoTolot]

I got some resolves for all the updated levels here.

[Kingshadow3]

@IchoTolot

For Rule 1 and 2. The resolves are acceptable ones. My rule 2 has a few cases where skills can be used interchangeably.

For Rule 3, I've changed the shape of the Robot Clown heads so it shouldn't be possible to get over them anymore.