Level Design Contest #24 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)

[kaywhyn]

@Armani

R2 - Definitely closer than the previous solution but still a backroute as you correctly guessed. It still avoided some elements that I wanted to enforce, so for V4 I added OWAs, moved some terrain near the exit, as well as added some in that area, moved a button, and -1 blocker and +1 basher. This might even force the player better in the correct direction of the solution, but let's see. In a way, I'm not confident that the intended solution is completely forced now, but even if it isn't my hope is that at least it's still yet closer than all previous solutions you sent me

R3 - I almost wanted to say your solution is acceptable, but for V3 I decided to add just slightly more terrain on either side of the exit, and as a result I removed the 10 tons traps on either side of it. It's really just to force players to use more skills. Also, thanks for the feedback on the skillset, and as a result I took your suggestion and reduced the skillset to 4-of-everything. It should be more challenging this way now while still being open-ended, just more restrictive and not allowing too much degrees of freedom. Of course, I made sure the level's still possible with the new reduced skillset, and it is, as I have a new replay proof, since I needed to tweak my previous one a bit due to the changes I made. Heck, V2 and earlier might even be possible with 3-of-everything, but I haven't tried, and I don't want it to be super tight, and so I'll just settle with the 4-of-everything skillset.

In any case, your solution is way more efficient than mine, and if I accept yours for V3, then I'll just say any other future solutions from everyone else at this point is acceptable for me.

Thanks again for resolving my levels and helping me to improve them! I can tell you're enjoying them just as much as the other entries in this contest. Yes, I might not have quite reached Icho, Nepster, or Armani difficulty in my levels, but I'm slowly getting there... I think

[Armani]

resolved updated levels.

Guide to Clone Survival in the Jungle

It's probably still not intended.

EMERGECY EVACUATION

attached several replays. I don't think any of them are intended though

[kaywhyn]

@Armani

R2 - Yup, still not intended, and this one seemed to have gotten much further than the previous solutions. For V5, I added some more terrain, shifted some terrain above the exit, shifted the exit and the two grass vine traps near it, added some vine traps, and moved the 4 cloner pickups to a different location. I really had to think long and hard on how to fix it up. I have to suspect that the level has become much harder as a result, but at the same time it might even force or at least lead more in the correction direction of the intended solution

R3 - Although your new solution seems somewhat more efficient than your previous one, I will say it's now acceptable for my liking. For maybe some others, they might not be as efficient in the skill usages, but as I mentioned previously I don't want the skillset to be even tighter than the new modified skillset in V3. Even with the skillset, the level is still open-ended while not allowing as much degrees of freedom that the 5-of-everything skillset did. At the same time, I haven't checked to see if the level is possible with 3-of-everything, but even if it is I don't want the skillset to be too tight. 4-of-everything feels just perfect per your feedback

Thus, only my R2 needs resolving on your end

[∫tan x dx]

@Armani Definitely all backroutes Check the other thread for an update!

[kaywhyn]

I've started an LP of some of these contest levels, and I was able to solve all the R1's, although one needed a second video. Here are my replays for the R1 levels, minus the replay for Icho's level and mine, as I had the honor of pre-testing his levels once again. I will attach solutions to Icho's levels and to all of my levels later on once I deem solutions to each of them acceptable.

I for sure backrouted Armani's level, and possibly KingShadow3's as well, although perhaps it's still acceptable despite the leftover skill? The Tomato Watcher's R1 should be intended.

LP Video Links:

Rule 1 Part 1:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5_EEFFxTAs

Rule 1 Part 2:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9eFf7xJTmw

Armani's Lemmings in a Rave V1

Sorry Armani, it appears that I broke your R1 This did involve extreme precision and timing with the laserer and basher in order to build across the gap without leaving it open. 

KingShadow3's OttoLicho's Sprudel Squires V1:

Difficult one but quite a nice one! I really like what you did with the title, where the first word is an anagram of IchoTolot. So, I'm wondering if this level is a tribute to one of his levels from the United pack.

Spoiler

it really reminds me of the level "The Drunken Knights of Clausthal," so did you get inspiration for this level from that level of his? Almost uses the exact same trick as that one.

The Tomato Watcher's And Now, The Incredible Shimmier V2:

Nice level. Easiest R1 level IMO.


I will post the rest of my replays and LP videos once I get all the other levels solved. So far, I've had an attempt at two R2 levels and wasn't able to solve either one within the time I spent recording, so it looks like the R2's will need an extra solving session in general.

[Armani]

Resolved updated 2 levels : Guide to Clone Survival in the Jungle / EMERGENCY EVACUATION

I attached two replays for both respectively. Unfortunately all 4 seem to be backroutes.

[∫tan x dx]

@Armani Those are both backroutes, but you're getting very close!

[Kingshadow3]

@kaywhyn

Spoiler

Yes. My rule 1 was inspired by IchoTolot's "The Drunken Knights of Clausthal".

Anyway, your solution is a backroute Armani didn't find. I've uploaded my V2 in the update topic.

[kaywhyn]

@Armani

Ah, this is starting to feel like LDC #22 all over again, where you kept backrouting my R3, but this time it's for my R2 Both of your solutions are backroutes, although your second solution is closer than your first one in many ways, but overall there's still some things either solutions miss. In particular, there are 3 tricks that I haven't seen in any of your solutions that you keep avoiding! I think I know how KingShadow3 feels now with your uncanny ability to practically backroute anything any of us throw at you And I thought I was good at backrouting

For V6, more shifting of terrain and more terrain added, and added another grass vine trap. For this, I pretty much took each of your solutions one at a time and tried to block out each one. However, your first solution is, once again, due to a terrain misplacement error on my part, as well as how I keep forgetting to test about terrain being passable or not without any additional skills needed. I think this will finally be enough, but let's see.

@KingShadow3

Ah, good to know! Backroute, huh? I'm guessing I'm not too far off. 

[Armani]

Some more replays to Guide to Clone Survival in the Jungle / EMERGENCY EVACUATION

The two solutions to EMERGENCY EVACUATION are almost unchanged from yesterday, basically same but with better timings.

[∫tan x dx]

@Armani More backroutes, but I think the latest changes might force your hand!

[kaywhyn]

@Armani

All three solutions to my R2 are bad backroutes in some way However, I am happy to see that another one of my tricks I intended has been used or at least a very close form of it in the solutions. However, there's still two others that aren't being used. For V7, I added another button and a vine grass trap which should definitely 100% enforce it now (never thought it would be so hard to enforce here!), and as a result it might even completely enforce the other trick I intended in another part of the level as well, added some OWAs, and some more terrain. Unfortunately, I think these fixes have resulted in more precision in the intended solution than I originally wanted, but well, sometimes that's the way it is Once again, I have to suspect that all these changes have clearly made this one one of my hardest levels in this contest

Thank you so much for your patience and persistence in resolving each new version of my R2, even if I've been slowly getting flustered in trying to think of fixes to implement, as I'm definitely starting to see that sometimes it's just as much work to backroute fix than it is to solve the levels. Even then, I'm still more of a level solver than a level maker    

[Armani]

Some more replays to Guide to Clone Survival in the Jungle / EMERGENCY EVACUATION

Guide to Clone Survival in the Jungle

Yeah I personally think backroute-proofing a level is a lot harder than making the level and infinitely harder than solving the level, especially if the level is difficult. Whenever I think my certain level is backroute-proof, there's always another backroute I missed From the new vine trap and added button, I suspect my second solution might have another intended trick.(building over the water gap and to the digger hole to contain the crowd in the infinite loop) I always spares one or more cloner so far, so maybe that's the key to the missing intended trick...

EMERGENCY EVACUATION

The laserer skill is sooo powerful !! It makes the fencer skill looks like a trash!

[kaywhyn]

@Armani

Your second solution is the closest to the intended solution that I've gotten from you thus far, but unfortunately still a backroute For V8, I removed and shifted some terrain, as well as extended some OWAs and added up OWAs close to it. I'm really praying that this is hopefully the last time I need to update this level, but I'm not confident about that.

Spoiler

The builder is almost correct, I just haven't seen the correct intended trick with it yet. However, I think with the OWAs I added it should be very obvious now, so I think unfortunately the very hard solution I had in mind is now a bit clearer thanks to the visuals. Perhaps this will finally force it, but I'm not hopeful atm, with your uncanny ability to backroute practically anything

And yes, I'm finally seeing the correct trick right above the exit.

I think you're right about it being harder and more work to backroute proof a very difficult level. As strange as it might sound, sometimes one can spend far longer fixing up a level than the time spent solving it. In the worst case scenario, it's not possible to enforce the intended solution and hence it's either discard and uses the backrouted part in the solution, accept the alternative, or something else. I think I've now reached the same number of patches for my R2 as my R3 from LDC #22

[∫tan x dx]

@Armani Regarding your second solution:

Spoiler

You got it!
The original intention was for the fencers to be red herrings. They would be too slow to use and so the zombies would always overrun the lemmings. This would force the player to use the laserer to blast three holes by using the teleporter.

Unfortunately it didn't work out in practice; the fencer is still fast enough by itself. I could simply remove the fencer entirely, but I fear that would make the solution too obvious. I'll have a think, and see what I can come up with.

Once again, nicely done!