[DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Portals

[namida]

This proposal is considered a strong contender.

This proposal is for an object similar to teleporters, but that operates constantly (similar to fire / water / exits) instead of on a one-lemming-at-a-time basis (like existing teleporters, or traps). To further differentiate these from the teleporter, portals would also be bidirectional.

Considerations:
- Where should the warping lemming graphic come from? The lemming sprites? A universal default?
- For that matter, what should the warping lemming graphic look like? (For reference, Lemmings 3D's teleporter uses sparkles with no visual trace of the actual lemming. A similar animation could easily be universal and work with all spritesets.)
- What kind of visual guideline should be used for portal design, in particular to distinguish them from regular teleporters?

[Strato Incendus]

I think it should generally be closer to Lemmings Revolution, since the teleporters in Lemmings 3D are release-rate sensitive, whereas the main difference between portals and the teleporters that already exist in NeoLemmix is indeed that portals would not be release-rate sensitive.

[namida]

I think it should generally be closer to Lemmings Revolution, since the teleporters in Lemmings 3D are release-rate sensitive, whereas the main difference between portals and the teleporters that already exist in NeoLemmix is indeed that portals would not be release-rate sensitive.

Portals would absolutely be "affects every lemming, regardless of clumping". The only thing I am proposing we take inspiration from L3D on is the visual of the warping lemming.

[Proxima]

NeoLemmix isn't a "mix and match the best parts from all earlier Lemmings games", it's an individual game with its own identity. We can look to the other games for inspiration, but what other games do should have no weight at all when it comes to mechanics decisions. (Also, I haven't played Revolution so your post tells me nothing about what behaviour you are proposing.)

My suggestions:

* Instant movement rather than warp graphic, since instant movement is precisely what distinguishes portals from teleporters. The portal itself may have a secondary animation when it accepts a lemming, but this would be optional.
* Two-way portalling is problematic because we obviously don't want a portalled lemming to warp back on the next frame. If it's possible to get around this problem, then I think it's a good idea -- if the portal is essentially a "wormhole" connecting parts of the level that are not next to each other in normal space, then it would make sense for it to be two-way.
* If we do two-way portals, then it would make sense for skills to continue through them. If not, if the portal just "drops" the lemming at its destination, it should revert to a walker/faller.
* One option for the visual design is that portals should look more like a "hole" rather than a building-with-door (see some of WillLem's proposals for the now-rejected "vortex" object). This might not be the best option, since portals would normally not be placed in mid-air. However, an arch-shaped hole could work at ground level.

[WillLem]

should there be no warp graphic, with simply a sound and an instant movement to the new position?
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what should the warping lemming graphic look like?

Instant movement rather than warp graphic, since instant movement is precisely what distinguishes portals from teleporters. The portal itself may have a secondary animation when it accepts a lemming, but this would be optional.

Agree with Proxima here. The portal having a secondary animation would be a good idea so that the effect is more than just 'a lemming disappearing', which would look a bit sketchy, however the physics should absolutely be instant.

The portal could be further distinguished from the teleporter by being two-way. What do people think of this idea?

Definitely in favour of 2-way

The more attributes a portal has that make it not like a teleporter, the better. Puzzle and level design would benefit from these sorts of differences. Furthermore, it would mean that there would be no need for separate "IN" and "OUT" graphics.

What kind of visual guideline should be used for portal design, in particular to distinguish them from regular teleporters?

As a basic guideline, I'd suggest a circular, swirling effect similar to the rejected vortex idea. This further plays into the idea of it being like a "wormhole":

If we do two-way portals, then it would make sense for skills to continue through them. If not, if the portal just "drops" the lemming at its destination, it should revert to a walker/faller.

Agreed, although I see no reason why skills shouldn't also continue if they're only 1-way.

Having said that, I could also side with the idea that skills shouldn't continue, to even further distinguish the object from teleporters. The elsewhere discussion that this should be the other way around (i..e portals continue skills, teleporters stop skills) is absolutely correct though, it's just unfortunate that teleporters already continue skills

One option for the visual design is that portals should look more like a "hole" rather than a building-with-door ... This might not be the best option, since portals would normally not be placed in mid-air

Wouldn't they?

I can absolutely imagine using portals in mid-air, so I disagree with Proxima here. If we're pursuing the idea that these are wormhole/vortex-like, naturally-occurring objects, then random/mid-air placement plays into that quite nicely.

Ultimately, style designers can make these objects look however they like, but for the defaults I'd strongly recommend something along the lines of the circular, swirling motif shown above.

[Proxima]

One option for the visual design is that portals should look more like a "hole" rather than a building-with-door ... This might not be the best option, since portals would normally not be placed in mid-air

Wouldn't they?

I can certainly imagine cases where a mid-air portal would be the best choice for a puzzle; but I strongly suspect that ground-level portals will be much more common, for the simple reason that lemmings will walk into them. After all, teleporters have been in NL for a long time now, and we can see that they are used at ground level much more than in mid-air.

[Strato Incendus]

As a basic guideline, I'd suggest a circular, swirling effect similar to the rejected vortex idea. This further plays into the idea of it being like a "wormhole":

I like WillLem's first example, this looks very similar to portals in Lemmings Revolution, which is where the idea stems from.
So even any new NeoLemmix player who has played the official Lemmings games in the past (including Lemmings Revolution) should quickly be able to infer what these portals do.

Whereas this...

Portals would absolutely be "affects every lemming, regardless of clumping". The only thing I am proposing we take inspiration from L3D on is the visual of the warping lemming.

...would be visually confusing in my opinion, precisely because L3D teleporters are release-rate sensitive.
So having portals in NeoLemmix that look like L3D teleporters but are not release-rate sensitive would be counter-intuitive.

Even though I do like the red design of L3D teleporters by itself , but for once game-mechanical fairness and visual clarity trump aesthetics here, even for me, who has a history of sacrificing strict game fairness for the sake of aesthetics.

[WillLem]

After all, teleporters have been in NL for a long time now, and we can see that they are used at ground level much more than in mid-air.

But these aren't teleporters, hence the proposal.

Since they have immediate effect, they can potentially be fallen, swam, glided, floated, jumped, slid, climbed, shimmied, etc. into.

Not to mention the fact that the design may encourage more mid-air use of this object type, thus opening the field of play to more than ground-level dimensions.

[Proxima]

Since they have immediate effect, they can potentially be fallen, swam, glided, floated, jumped, slid, climbed, shimmied, etc. into.

Not to mention the fact that the design may encourage more mid-air use of this object type, thus opening the field of play to more than ground-level dimensions.

The field is already open. Teleporters can be placed in mid-air and can be fallen, swam, etc. into. Predominantly, they are not placed in mid-air, because after years of experimentation and experience, it turns out that that's how designers find it easiest to use them.

[WillLem]

Teleporters can be placed in mid-air and can be fallen, swam, etc. into. Predominantly, they are not placed in mid-air, because after years of experimentation and experience, it turns out that that's how designers find it easiest to use them.

Sure, but - again - this discussion is about Portals, not Teleporters. Ideally, they should be as different as possible, and therefore have more potential uses.

For one thing - if a portal set is in midair, and they are two-way, the first could be placed such that re-entry leads to a splat drop. Just one of many, many possible ideas that could be unique to Portals, particularly those placed in midair.

[namida]

Okay, I see that what I'm getting at is being misunderstood, so let me try again.

Where I spoke about L3D, I'm specifically talking about visuals of the lemming. Now - Proxima did propose in one post that this should be outright instant, which would imply no animation (but still maybe a sound), the lemming instantly changes location upon entering the portal. In that case, there is no "lemming visual" to speak of, and this discussion point would be redundant.

I was envisioning it more as like in Lemmings 3D, where the teleporting lemming temporarily enters a "teleporting" state. (We might want to use a different term instead of "teleporting" though, for obvious reasons - "warping" is one option.) This state has its own graphic - this is independent of the graphic of the teleporter itself, this is the graphic of the lemming. Here's a video - ignore the teleporter itself and just pay attention to the lemmings: https://youtu.be/KrgP7BcBUc0

So my thought is - when the lemming encounters a portal, an animation similar to this occurs while the lemming teleports, which takes a few frames. The portal would not be sensitive to releaserate or grouping; the entire point of the portal is that it differentiates itself from the teleporter in this way (essentially, portal is to a teleporter, what fire is to a trap); on a physics level it's like a trigger that puts every lemming that enters it into this "warping" state immediately (much like how fire puts all lemmings that enter it into the "burning" state).

As for whether the lemming comes out the other end continuing the current skill or as a walker/faller, I'd prefer "keeps the current skill" unless there is a good reason not to, simply to keep it consistent with teleporters.

* Two-way portalling is problematic because we obviously don't want a portalled lemming to warp back on the next frame. If it's possible to get around this problem, then I think it's a good idea -- if the portal is essentially a "wormhole" connecting parts of the level that are not next to each other in normal space, then it would make sense for it to be two-way.

Splitters have this problem too if a lemming drops in from above; it's not at all difficult to deal with. It could get messy if a level had multiple overlapping portals, but that to me feels like a "do not do this".

[WillLem]

This state has its own graphic - this is independent of the graphic of the teleporter itself, this is the graphic of the lemming

Sure, I understood this.

A new "Warper" sprite would cover this, of course, but are the objects likely to be used enough to warrant their own sprite? I'd tentatively suggest not, and so a secondary animation in the object itself therefore seems a better idea (I assume Proxima also reached this conclusion via the same thought path), even if it's only triggered every few lems or so; a bunch of lemmings walking into a Portal don't need to each have their own state, they can simply disappear, with one of them triggering the secondary anim. The visual effect would be good enough to cover all lems.

Having said that, if a Warper sprite is the end result of this discussion, I'll happily help to design it if needed. Bear in mind, though, that it would almost certainly be tied into the design of the Portal itself (e.g. if swirly Portal, then spinning lem would make sense as in the example above). So, it would likely influence the design of all subsequent Portals in custom styles. Whilst this is not necessarily a good or bad thing in itself, it's something to consider.

[namida]

Unless the relocation from portal A to portal B is instant, I would prefer some kind of per-lemming animation. An animation for the portal itself on top of this could be considered as an extra, optional thing. However, I had been thinking along the lines of having a single universal animation (similar to, on a technical level, the Stoner graphic) rather than spritesets each having to implement their own - of course this does mean it needs to be designed so that no lemming graphic is actually visible in it (although one possible option is to overlay it on top of a standard walker or faller sprite or "lemming's current state" sprite).

[WillLem]

one possible option is to overlay it on top of a standard walker or faller sprite or "lemming's current state" sprite

I like this idea...

I'm not sure what the technical limitations would be, but perhaps the sprite could be frozen at its current frame and then warped, much like in L3D. Is there something in the code that can shrink, stretch, bend or otherwise distort the sprites independently of their own animation cycle?

[namida]

I'm not sure what the technical limitations would be, but perhaps the sprite could be frozen at its current frame and then warped, much like in L3D. Is there something in the code that can shrink, stretch, bend or otherwise distort the sprites independently of their own animation cycle?

Frozen at the current frame is 100% doable. Transformations being applied to it might be - certianly the option is there, it's a matter of how good it would look. The alternative is simply for one frame of the warping animation to be large enough to obscure the entire lemming sprite, with the lemming disappearing / appearing behind said frame.