[DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Neutral-izer / Deneutral-izer

[namida]

This proposal is for objects that turn a regular lemming into a neutral lemming (or vice versa). This could be single-shot or infinite-use.

There is also the possibility of a "normal to zombie" equivalent, though only for the single-shot version - an infinite version can in most cases be emulated with blocker-on-steel or contained-in-steel preplaced zombie lemmings.

I might split this one into seperate topics later, but for now I think a combined topic is fine.

Considerations:
- Should they be single-use or infinite-use? (If infinite-use, they will be constant; ie: like fire, not like triggered traps.)

Ruled out variations:
- Zombie equivalents, except "single shot normal-to-zombie". "Zombie to normal", whether single-shot or infinite, introduces too much complexity when dealing with certain other aspects. "Infinite normal to zombie" is ruled out for the reasons described above.

Other notes:
- Objects that give or remove permanent skills exist as seperate suggestions and are not part of this one.

[Proxima]

To reiterate a point I made in the main "new objects" thread: A specialised object for turning lemmings into zombies seems pointless, because that's what a zombie already does. If you want a stationary zombifier, you can make a zombie preplaced blocker on steel.

I also don't think the other possibilities add enough potential to be worth pursuing. Turning a lemming into a neutral is either something to be avoided (but we already have traps and death hazards), or the puzzle is to allow the lemming to be neutralised and still save them (but we can already make puzzles of this type with neutral lemmings). Turning a neutral lemming normal means the lemming has to be directed into the normaliser, but then the interesting part of the puzzle can equally well be done by having to direct them into the exit.

[namida]

A specialised object for turning lemmings into zombies seems pointless, because that's what a zombie already does. If you want a stationary zombifier, you can make a zombie preplaced blocker on steel.

There may be more potential in the one-shot version. However, that's an excellent point that a blocker-on-steel zombie basically makes an infinite zombifier redundant.

(rest of Proxima's post in general)

I had actually been wondering how worthwhile this really is, and was intending to ask if anyone could think of specific cases where the under-consideration versions of this object might be useful - and in particular, where there is no workaround using existing features (or other proposed features, especially strong contenders). So yeah - let's open that question. To those who like this idea - what are your particular ideas for how to use it, and why can these ideas not be created using existing features?

[WillLem]

Strongly in favour of Normalizers (i.e. neutral-to-normal)

Reasons:

- Allows for levels which involve retrieval of multiple neutral lemmings from different difficult-to-reach locations, thus playing into the idea of "added value" levels (see this topic and the subsequent discussion regarding side-quests).
- Puzzles requiring 2 or more workers could involve additional puzzles for first "activating" those workers
- Levels could involve directing a single group of neutrals to a "Normalizer", before then having them assigned skills to complete the remainder of the level (this one could, I suppose, be simulated using teleporters)
- Possible backroute prevention tool

I'm less in favour of Neutralizers, for mostly the reasons already discussed by Proxima.

Should they be single-use or infinite-use?

Both? Could there be a 'TYPE = INFINITE' or 'TYPE = ONESHOT' line in the .nxmo?

If infinite-use, should they be one-at-a-time (like traps) or constant (like fire / water / exits)?

Constant, all day every day. But again, could this be configurable in the .nxmo?

"Zombie to normal", whether single-shot or infinite, introduces too much complexity when dealing with certain other aspects.

Any chance of this being discussed and possibly turned around? I think a Zombie Saver would be well worth the effort to work through the complexities. Out of interest, what are the complexities?

Turning a neutral lemming normal means the lemming has to be directed into the normaliser, but then the interesting part of the puzzle can equally well be done by having to direct them into the exit.

Strongly disagree with this. There are obviously way more possibilities when the activated lemmings can continue to perform actions within the level vs. being exited from the level.

[namida]

Any chance of this being discussed and possibly turned around? I think a Zombie Saver would be well worth the effort to work through the complexities. Out of interest, what are the complexities?

Ultimately, it comes down to how many things are affected. Many parts of NL are written with the assumption that zombies should be ignored (because they'll never be saveable or useable, they're basically just a moving trap) - a lot would need to be revised to account for saveable zombies, and each thing missed would generally mean a bug arises. I ruled this out because I couldn't see any use case where the advantage of specifically being able to do this with a zombie (keeping in mind that neutrals were still an option) outweighed the issues.

Now on the other hand,

Strongly disagree with this. There are obviously way more possibilities when the activated lemmings can continue to perform actions within the level vs. being exited from the level.

I honestly think the most impressive uses of a deneutralizer will come from cases like this. This could in particular get interesting when combined with preassigned skills.

This is in fact something that can essentially be tested out with the current version, albeit with reliance on player honesty to simulate neutrals - you could mark neutrals by giving them Swimmers or Disarmers in a level where those don't matter, and use a no-effect object (perhaps one of the default style flags?) as a stand-in for the deneutralizer. (Obviously, reliance on player honesty does not work as a replacement for the actual feature as a whole; but it's certianly good enough for "evaluating the usefulness of the feature" purposes.)

(re: various types)

I think it'll complicate things too much if players have to remember which neutralizers / deneutralizers are single shot vs multi-shot, and which multi-shot ones are trap-style vs which are fire-style. I would rather keep it to a single rule - in fact I might even go as far as to say I'd want to keep a single rule across (de)neutralizers and skill (de)assigners as a whole, ie: either they're all one-shot, or they're all trap-style, or they're all fire-style.

For now, I'm not going to outright say the skill ones vs the state ones must be the same - rather, just that it'd be the default assumption that if there's no good reason not to be the same, they will be - but I will say that I want a single rule within each type (ie: all skill assigners and deassigners are the same; and all state changers are the same; but state changers being different from skill (de)assigners can still be considered at this stage).

[WillLem]

Many parts of NL are written with the assumption that zombies should be ignored (because they'll never be saveable or useable, they're basically just a moving trap) - a lot would need to be revised to account for saveable zombies

Sure, but... once they've been converted to regular lems, they're no longer zombies, and so the zombie rules no longer apply, surely...?

[namida]

Sure, but... once they've been converted to regular lems, they're no longer zombies, and so the zombie rules no longer apply, surely...?

Once again, many parts of NL are written with the assumption that zombies should be ignored (because they'll never be saveable or useable).

Adding in an extra step of "turn it into a non-zombie first" does not negate this. If it did, it wouldn't be a concern in the first place for an object where the entire point is that it turns the zombie into a non-zombie.

Yes, the Cloner can also create new, saveable, useable lemmings - and there are a lot of places with code specifically to handle it doing so. A dezombifier is not worth the effort of doing similar for zombies, when the most interesting ideas it would allow can still be achieved via the deneutralizer.

[WillLem]

Adding in an extra step of "turn it into a non-zombie first" does not negate this

Why?

How about this instead, then:

Zombie enters Dezombifier > Zombie is deleted > Brand new, normal lemming is spawned from the same spot and added to the total lem count

[namida]

How about this instead, then:

Zombie enters Dezombifier > Zombie is deleted > Brand new, normal lemming is spawned from the same spot and added to the total lem count

Yes, the Cloner can also create new, saveable, useable lemmings - and there are a lot of places with code specifically to handle it doing so. A dezombifier is not worth the effort of doing similar for zombies, when the most interesting ideas it would allow can still be achieved via the deneutralizer.

[GigaLem]

While I am bummed that a "Dezombifier"/"Revitalizer" can't exist, I'm for this idea like with the other skill altering fields.

from my skill remover topic

I'd imagine it being a infinite use object, if finite use ones had to exist, it should have a number over the skill to list how many until the object shuts down, like with the finite exits

The Object will probably need an icon that should be visible outside of CPM, something that best shows what neutral means, so its doesn't have to say "-/+ Neutral" I imagine the fields having a gray color scheme where the trigger area must be for Neutralizers, but a blue one for normalizers.

[Dullstar]

Hmmm, personally the Neutralizer could be an interesting trap, since it's still possible to recover lemmings that enter, while still being disadvantageous - so saving lemmings that were forced into the Neutralizer (say a worker lemming needs to perform some tasks but will be unable to avoid the object) could be an interesting puzzle. But the other way around seems a lot more niche and probably not hard to work around not existing with existing features.

As already mentioned, a Zombifier already exists in NL, just by using a zombie blocker on steel. A Dezombifier has already been ruled out (which is a shame, really, because I think it has a lot more potential than the Deneutralizer), but if we were to add a Zombifier anyway, I think that either both the Neutralizer/Zombifier should have a corresponding Deneutralizer/Dezombifier, or neither should have one. It would be strange for zombies to only have one but neutrals to have both.

TL;DR:
- Neutralizer - Yes
- Deneutralizer - seems pointless but whatever
- Zombifier - seems pointless. If Neutralizer and Deneutralizer are both accepted, don't include this one without also including a Dezombifier

[WillLem]

How about this instead, then:

Zombie enters Dezombifier > Zombie is deleted > Brand new, normal lemming is spawned from the same spot and added to the total lem count

Yes, the Cloner can also create new, saveable, useable lemmings - and there are a lot of places with code specifically to handle it doing so. A dezombifier is not worth the effort of doing similar for zombies, when the most interesting ideas it would allow can still be achieved via the deneutralizer.

Zombies are fatal, neutrals are not. A puzzle involving zombies may need some to be saved, whilst the others still need to be avoided.

Besides anything else, being able to save zombies should be a possibility in NeoLemmix

[WillLem]

Besides anything else, being able to save zombies should be a possibility in NeoLemmix

An exit which admits only zombies? If this idea would be doable, I'll make a topic for it.

[namida]

Being able to save zombies - whether it is via dezombifying them first, or directly - is not going to happen. Use neutrals if you need a non-controllable, but saveable, lemming.

[namida]

After re-reading over this topic, and the skill equivalents, I have decided to rule out infinite triggered as the style of the trap. Single-shot and infinite-constant are both still open as possibilities.