[DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Permanent skill assigner

[Proxima]

How can there be an exit that Climbers can't reach, but non-Climbers can?

O ye of little faith:

[WillLem]

How can there be an exit that Climbers can't reach, but non-Climbers can?

O ye of little faith:

Give me a Basher and a Walker and I'll make your day

[Proxima]

Sure, but if that's embedded in a full level and you can't reach it with any spare skills, only non-climbers can reach that exit

Also:

my goal here is simply to point out that the two setups are different: a "Climber-specific" exit can have all non-Climbers walk right past it, whereas a "reachable only by Climbers" exit is reachable only by Climbers.

Here's a climber-only exit that non-climbers will walk right past:

[WillLem]

you haven't provided a scenario where the dedicated object enables a puzzle that the terrain setup doesn't.

Here's a climber-only exit that non-climbers will walk right past:

OK, sure - nicely done. Maybe I should have said directly in front of instead Here's a scenario which addresses all of the above:



The first exit is a dedicated "Climbers-only" exit. The skillset provides 1 Bomber, and all but 1 lem must be saved.

[Proxima]

It seems to me that the solution is for a normal lemming to bomb out the trigger of the climber-only exit, allowing a climber to reach the pick-up skill; then build up to the normal exit.

Exactly the same puzzle could be created with my setup followed by the rise in terrain and pick-up skill as in your setup; then the solution is to bomb just below the vertical brick so that climbers can get past and reach the pick-up skill, etc.

(I'm really glad that this conversation has come up, because it is giving me some ideas for actual levels!)

[namida]

How can there be an exit that Climbers can't reach, but non-Climbers can? Same question for a skill that "needs to be given to non-Climbers" - why can't it be given to the Climbers as well?

I can one up a theoretical answer here, and show some actual examples from my levels.

Image of Lemmings Plus Alpha, Decimation 5 "Levelly McLevelface"

For the former - "an exit that climbers cannot reach". Although not directly used to prevent reaching an exit here, the overall goal remains the same - the climber cannot turn around at either side of the level (without wasting a skill to do so, one that the player cannot actually afford to waste - this is the counterpoint to the "why not just use another skill?", as that's just like any other situation where a skill can be used to perform a backroute and doesn't invalidate the overall setup in general). You could apply this specifically to the exit - have a wall like this, or multiple walls like this if you like, with the exit at the bottom. Really, this just comes down to the very same "climbers may take a different path than non-climbers" that we're already very used to, and just looking at it from a different angle - "what if the path the climber would take is the one we DON'T want to use, instead of the one we do?"

Image of Lemmings Plus Omega, Mental 4 "Trade Of The Tricks"

For the latter - "a skill that needs to be given to non-climbers, and can't be given to climbers as well". This level isn't quite exactly that situation, as the climbers / floaters are preassigned, but it illustrates the general idea of how one would acheive this. You need to save all 20 lemmings 38 of 40 lemmings. Were they not preassigned, you'd have climbers for half the lemmings and floaters for the other half - you couldn't send all 20 38~40 to the same exit, because there aren't enough climbers to send everyone to the right, and there aren't enough floaters to send everyone to the left. Of course in another level, this could simply be "you need one climber and one floater, each on a different lemming", not necesserially "every lemming must be one or the other"; the reason it couldn't be given to the climber simply being in general "because there aren't enough left after giving them to everyone else who needs one".

OK, sure - nicely done. Maybe I should have said directly in front of instead Here's a scenario which addresses all of the above:

Keep in mind also that, as shown by the examples above, in real-world levels there are stricter limitations (and the level author can add more of / alter these as needed, generally) on what the player can actually do to bypass it, as opposed to theoretical scenarios where infinite skills of every type are available, as are infinite useable (and loseable) lemmings and infinite time if it comes to that. Some of the terrain involved may be steel or one-way, or a needed skill may not be available (either not in the skillset entirely, or needed elsewhere in the level / provided as a pickup that would not be reached using this approach).

[WillLem]

@namida I'll be honest, I'm not sure I understand your examples

Could you do a replay or a quick LP to demonstrate what you mean? Totally OK if not, I'll take your word for it that my question has been answered

[namida]

Should the permanent skill assigner affect zombies?

My feeling on this is yes. Zombies can't be assigned a permanent skill by the player, but they can have one, and there is precedent for objects being able to give permanent skills to a zombie in the case of zombie entrances with preassigned skills.

Since neutrals remain able to interact with all skill types that regular lemmings can, I do not feel there is any grounds to consider an exception for neutrals here. Zombies on the other hand, while as noted my opinion is that this should affect them, there are at least some weak arguments I can think of against it.

[namida]

This has been implemented in commits 36e7d44 (visuals, and a should-work-but-doesn't implementation of the physics) and dc3ea87 (made it actually work).

You can see it - along with the remover - in action here: https://youtu.be/YQjJZiZoTAI

At this stage, zombies are just as affected by it as anything else; it will be trivial to change this later if need be.

[WillLem]

Should the permanent skill assigner affect zombies?

Yes, because they can be given skills via pre-assigned hatches.

Zombie exits and/or un-zombifiers and/or "kill all zombie" talismans should also exist in NeoLemmix as well, lest zombies continue to exist as nothing more than just another trap to avoid, albeit a moving one. It baffles me that all of these ideas have slipped through the "NeoLemmix Final Version" net.