Level Design Contest #23 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)

[kaywhyn]

@KingShadow3 - Still a backroute I'm sure, especially since I spared the same two skills again AND I saved everyone This one took me quite a while to find. I probably spent a good hour on this level, as it pretty much seems to be getting quite difficult

[Kingshadow3]

@Kaywhyn. Try my V4. See if it can still be broken.

[kaywhyn]

This one finally looks to be 100% intended. If so, very nice solution! Deceptively difficult for a 2-of-everything, especially since a lot of things will fail by at least a pixel or so. Also, some of the skills are quite precise.

Spoiler

The second blocker was what I couldn't figure out for a while, as well as how to save one of the blockers if both need to be used. Turns out that they're mechanics I'm familiar with. No very fancy/advanced tricks needed, just some parts are difficult to see.

I think with this, we're all done with updates for this LDC. I noticed you haven't sent any replays for my R1, though. Is it proving to be too hard or something?

[Kingshadow3]

@Kaywhyn That is the intended solution. I initially used one wide steel block to patch your backroute from earlier but then found out that it could still be broken by cloning the miner just before hitting the steel so it was changed to 2 small square steel blocks which were wider than one rectangular steel block.

I've never been particularly good at solving levels to be honest. So I generally only play each level for about 30 minutes or so.

@Ichotolot. Make sure you update to the latest version of my levels before you record your footage so you don't discover a backroute that has already been patched out.

[kaywhyn]

@KingShadow3 - Ah, understood. I think you're definitely better at solving than you say you are, especially since you managed to figure out Armani's R1, and I considered it to be a difficult one! Also, you're pretty good at making deceivingly tough levels, though, I'll give you that. With me, that's not a bad thing at all. Hard levels are my kind of level that I love to play/solve, especially if it's the good kind of hard, where it stumps me for some time but it's very satisfying to figure out. Now that I know the solution for your R1, for example, I honestly have no idea why it took me so long to see it. It was a huge case of me overlooking the simple stuff. Your newest R2 version took me some time as well, although nowhere near as long as R1. Even then, I enjoy playing levels of all difficulties.

I'm glad to hear that you've immensely enjoyed watching me figure out/talk my way through your levels on video in my LP In any case, since I now have the intended/acceptable solutions to all these contest levels, in maybe a day or so, I will be making 3 more videos showing off the solutions to each ruleset one last time, including showing off the intended solutions to my levels, so if you're not able to figure out my R1, you can just simply watch my video.

Regarding my R1's difficulty, I say it's up there with the rest of the R1's in this contest, where it's deceptively difficult, but comparatively speaking to them I say mine's the easiest of the R1's. Heck, I think my levels are the easiest in each ruleset. Still, I've been proven wrong about how I've always had this notion that I'm no good at making difficult levels

[Kingshadow3]

@Kaywhyn Sometimes it's hard for me to make a level that is both fun and challenging. I often worry that I won't be able to repeat making such levels when I get round to making a level pack as well as future contests. I actually took a little longer on doing "Cactus Valley" than usual (Mainly because Ichotolot sorts everyone's levels by creators in Alphabetical order thus Armani's level was the first level). Breaking a level is often easier than finding the intended solution.

Another thing I want to point out is that for my 3 entries that I only used Classic Lemmings styles. While I find using classic style easy for me. I'd like to use L2/L3 and user created styles for future contests. Orig_Marble seems to be a popular style to use since I used it as one of the styles for my R3. Kaywhyn used it for his R1 and Ichotolot used it for his R2. I also made my PFP using the Marble Tileset.

This particular contest was pretty small (Only 12 entries from 4 people) so I definitely believe that the next one will be much bigger considering that the Slider and Laserer will be available in the next contest.

[kaywhyn]

Breaking a level is often easier than finding the intended solution.

That's generally how people solve levels if they can't find the intended solution after a while: They try to backroute the level! Backroutes aren't necessarily a bad thing, as they might be ones that a solver finds that the designer otherwise might not had found on his/her own.

Another thing I want to point out is that for my 3 entries that I only used Classic Lemmings styles. While I find using classic style easy for me. I'd like to use L2/L3 and user created styles for future contests. Orig_Marble seems to be a popular style to use since I used it as one of the styles for my R3. Kaywhyn used it for his R1 and Ichotolot used it for his R2. I also made my PFP using the Marble Tileset.

I think a person who starts out in level designing almost always first uses the classic tilesets. For example, the very first level I have ever made is in the Bubble tileset. I have to suspect it's because they're the most familiar and are generally easy to work with for the most part. Just so you know, yes, in L1 marble is one of my absolute favorite tilesets, and in ONML it's bubble and brick that are my favorites. In L2, sports and outdoors are generally my top favorites, mostly because green happens to be my favorite color.

This particular contest was pretty small (Only 12 entries from 4 people) so I definitely believe that the next one will be much bigger considering that the Slider and Laserer will be available in the next contest.

Yea, I was a bit surprised by the very low number of people who entered in this LDC. I was thinking perhaps people are just burnt out from the previous contest (there were 34 levels and 12 authors I believe!), but it seems that from Discord discussions it was simply due to not having interesting ideas to make levels for the rulesets, along with real life.

This is only my second LDC I have ever entered, mostly because I rather solve levels than make them. Even then, because I enjoyed the previous LDC a lot more than I thought I would, I decided to get into designing again by participating in this LDC. Although I have only made 6 Lemmings levels total so far, there's some things that I have learned about myself in regards to the levels I have made. For example, so far it seems that I'm a fan of small/moderate sized levels with a somewhat tight, minimal skillset, resulting in deceptive and somewhat difficult levels. So, while IMO I have yet to reach, say, high Icho/Nepster level difficulty, I might be able to eventually pull it off in the future, but it's going to take me some time. Also, I don't have any huge levels yet, especially since it seems that I have a very hard time trying to make such things so far.

Finally, the biggest reason why I perceive my levels being the easiest out of every designer in this contest is due to me not having made these levels until just days before the closing deadline for submission. For example, I literally put together my R2 in just about 15-20 minutes! It seems that I simply get huge creative bursts for levels closer to the deadline than further from it. I tried to finally start making my levels the final Friday before the deadline, but I didn't get anywhere until probably Sunday or Monday. For the most part, I think they turned out all right, although I certainly still have room for improvement, especially in the visuals department. I've never been an artist, and I'm still not, as I can't draw for the life of me. 

[IchoTolot]

I played through all levels and recorded my playthrough:


Rule 1: https://youtu.be/Yoje6ITqXBw
Rule 2+3: https://youtu.be/LtkAbUPp2to
Rest of Rule 3 and my own levels: https://youtu.be/Eht-T9dBwGo

My solutions are attached.

[Armani]

Intended, Intended and close enough Well done!



I also attached solutions to my own levels.

[kaywhyn]

@Icho As I kind of had a feeling that it would happen from none other than you, all your solutions to my levels were backroutes. This is quite interesting, as for once Armani didn't backroute the heck out of my levels and therefore them needing so many versions like in the previous LDC   I have uploaded newer versions for all 3 of them. I think they might be all properly fixed now, but let's see!

Thank you once again for your feedback in your videos of the playthrough of my contest levels. I totally didn't notice the oddity in the appearance of the acid pool at the bottom of my R1. I have fixed that for the next version. Yes, I did mention that it will likely be a while before I can properly satisfy you in the visual department, especially since I have never been an artist myself. Perhaps one thing that will help immensely is if I left myself way more time by making the levels far ahead of the submission closing deadline instead of just leaving them until just days before.

I'm glad you noticed that I'm "trying hard to really improve in making my levels look better" as you stated in your playthrough of my R1. I really am trying to put in the effort in that area of level designing, but yes, I'm still in agreement that it needs work. For starters, I'm glad that you're liking my levels for their puzzles, though. Don't worry if your feedback can sound harsh coming from you. I know you're very blunt and direct, as I can be at times as well. I'm always looking to improve my own levels, so any feedback I get is fine with me! 

Also, I noticed that my R3 in your video playthrough was playing the wrong music track. I have fixed this on my end by taking out the subfolder in the music line in the editor. I find it interesting that no one else brought this up, so perhaps for Armani it might had played the wrong track as well.


@Armani I believe the new versions of my R1 and R3 ended up breaking your replays, but you already got the intended solutions to all my levels last time. I did slightly shift some terrain around, and I thought they wouldn't affect your replays, but I guess they did.   

[IchoTolot]

I think I have more backroutes for kaywhyn

[Kingshadow3]

@Ichotolot Rule 1 is intended. Rule 2 wasn't my solution but it's acceptable since it still uses all the skills. Rule 3 is pretty open so there are multiple ways to free the crowd initially.

[kaywhyn]

@Icho Ack, make that 3 backroutes, as you again managed to backroute all 3 of my levels once more I have uploaded a new version for all 3 levels. Hopefully they're all fixed up this time!

[IchoTolot]

@kaywhyn

I have hopes for 1 solution this time.

[kaywhyn]

@Icho R1 and R2 are still backroutes. For R1, I've added some terrain and made a skill a pickup. For R2, I've added up OWAs. Hopefully I've killed two birds with one stone here!

R3 is now 100% intended. Well done!