[Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (12 tribes complete, needs testing)

[Ste Woz Ere]

Bit later than originally planned (RL etc.) but I'm now a quarter of the way there. I wasn't sure how I'd fare at Lemmings 1 levels, but I think I've done alright - the hardest base camp, some bitesize puzzles, a traditional time trial, a few nods to the original L1 and the odd sprawler. (I can't see them posing any real challenge here though, given the sheer number of L1 level packs over the years)

There is also now a titlepic. (bit crappy, but yay it's something)

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Version 4.0 has been released
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Classic - tribe is now complete.

Classic 1 (Base Camp) - lowered the water, to L1 height.
Circus 9 (RGB Nightclub) - removed 1 club basher, after finding a massive flaw in the puzzle.
Circus 10 (Deca-Dance) - reworked the metal around the blue trapdoors, to make the twister section more forgiving.

[kieranmillar]

Oh hey nice, good job getting another tribe out. I had just finished recording and uploading my next video on 3.3.

https://youtu.be/QetLeTb9cW4

[Ste Woz Ere]

Very nice so far, things will get trickier though. (I was convinced I'd never be able to create puzzles as hard as yours, but 3 tribes in I'm not so sure now)

Spoiler

The very first thing I discovered when I started on this journey was that the red/blue wedges don't work as ladders...there's a single pixel gap. So I used them for going downwards, and green/yellow for going upwards. They appear in 2 other Highland levels, do you think they will catch people out in the same way that the hanging chains did?

Highland 1 - There are multiple solutions to each base camp, the concept is to highlight the differences between the tribes by completing the same level with each skillset. (it's also a bit like a practice level for each tribe)
Highland 2 - Hrm, there was me thinking this level couldn't be broken. Very nice solution (probably better than the intended one), but I think I can fix it.
Highland 3 - I took great care to ensure it was too far to shortcut with a rope, but not to parachute onto the golf course...but still, you found a lot of the intended solution in the end.
Highland 4 - There are 2 ways to do it, but after I redesigned the level, the one you did became the main way.

A quick update, after noticing a couple of errors (one of them major).

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Version 4.1 has been released
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Highland 2 (Pillars of Hebrides) - added a wall in front of the exit, removed 1 mortar and the base of each pillar. (to fix a somewhat clever backroute)
Highland 10 (Ten Brown Barrels) - removed a graphical error and slightly extended the ledge over the blue house. (for easier roping)
Classic 3 (A Race of Halves) - removed an erroneous pillar that would cause a backroute. (a failed attempt to add scenery above the exit)

[kieranmillar]

Latest playtesting video:
https://youtu.be/gmFnEV1SlGk

[Ste Woz Ere]

Looks like another update is needed, but that's what playtesting is for. (I appreciate it)

Spoiler

Highland 5 - Not sure what to do here. The intended route is the bottom way, but I did discover the top way before I originally released it. However, it was a more difficult route so I left it in. (plus I couldn't find a way to fix it)
Highland 6 - Looks like I didn't entirely crawl-proof it. All the skills are involved though, and I do find mortars help a bit with certain twister moves. Your twister skills are impressive (I dunno if I can leave 1-pixel ledges like that), but I wouldn't ask for that level of precision in the intended method.
(btw I'm not offended by attempts to break the levels, it's part of the process)

Classic 1 - This is the one tribe I was concerned about for the base camp (even less so than Egyptian after I found an easier way for that). You did have the correct method (the only bit you missed was mining the end off the bridge, so the blocker and releaser could climb up), but I was never happy with it for an intro map.

It might be a directional thing too...I noticed while doing Classic that I found it easier to deal with blockers on left-to-right bridges (which is not the case here), so rather than reverse all 12 base camps (like I had to with one Classic level), I've fixed this one so the straight bridge method can be used with 2 builders.

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Version 4.2 has been released
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Highland 6 (The Iron-Rich Mountain) - added some more water (to stop crawlers), improved the left trapdoor cave. (to make it easier to control and escape from). Also added 1 min and 1 roper.
Classic 1 (Base Camp) - extended the highest part of land before the big wall. (to allow an easier method to be used)

[kieranmillar]

More playtesting:

https://youtu.be/79-0NA-Kqbk

[Ste Woz Ere]

Normally I'd reply sooner, but I've been busy...

Spoiler

Highland 7 - Very nice. You can mortar a bit higher up on the first green pillar, to avoid having to parachute through the hole.
Highland 8 - You were so close, I thought you had it on more than one occasion.

...getting the next tribe done. I had fun with this one, particularly with the skill combos and trying to work catapults into puzzles (fairly easy after doing Circus though). I did want to move the roller to another tribe (namely Sports or Circus) but there was no room in either, plus it combo'd beautifully with some of the other skills...so I rolled with it. (heh)

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Version 5.0 has been released
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Medieval - tribe is now complete.

Highland 2 (Pillars of Hebrides) - replaced the swinging chain with a pair of giant arrows, to indicate whether the wedge staircases go up or down. Also filled in the space I didn't use with a bit of scenery.
Highland 3 (McLem's Drunken Dream) - replaced the diamond in the top right corner with the aforementioned swinging chain scenery. (he's drunk)
Highland 5 (Lembank Docks) - reworked the bottom section to have less gaps and removed 2 ropers. (that should kill the top route)
Highland 8 (Loch Lemond Storage Tank) - reworked the top section slightly (to add more room on the way back down), added 1 hopper and 1 thrower.
Highland 10 (Ten Brown Barrels) - made the trapdoor directly above the exit safe, added 1 roper and removed 1 attractor. (I decided that only 1-2 trapdoors should be unsafe at the start of these epic 10-trapdoor levels)
Circus 9 (RGB Nightclub) - added 1 laser blaster, in case lemmings get stuck in the wagon wheels.

[kieranmillar]

Another video:
https://youtu.be/KL-BGqsIzoM

[Ste Woz Ere]

Congrats on finishing a tribe! How would you rate the difficulty compared to QFK2? (hard to tell atm)

Spoiler

Highland 8 - Very nice, I didn't think it could be done with 1 rope instead of 2 (which does break the other half of the top section, but is very difficult to pull off in the first place). The dog is solid btw, so feel free to use all 5 throwers before then.
Circus 8 - I didn't think you'd get a balloon through that gap, the intended way was to Superlem up and twist/club bash the top off the column to let the balloons up. Fixable, though.
Circus 9 - Solved pretty quickly, I wonder if this should be moved forward a couple of slots?
Circus 10 - The 10 trapdoor concept is an interesting one, but I admit this level is a bit more vague as to the solution (the other ones so far have a more obvious path). These levels are bound to have multiple solutions, but I wouldn't ask for sending up several balloons at once or fitting them through a laser hole with less than 5 blasters (the random piece of steel isn't quite so random).  I might try and simplify it a bit more later on, though.

Anyway, no intermediate update for this version...as I move straight on to the next one. This tribe was interesting, despite having the same core concept (pots) it turned out completely different due to the skill changes and the way I used them. (notably using carpets to go up all the time instead of down)

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Version 6.0 has been released
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Egyptian - tribe is now complete.

Circus 8 (Roadblock) - increased the height of the blue+yellow column, added another club basher.
Classic 8 (Tricks & Traps) - speeded up the release rate (to stop a possible 2-death solution), removed 2 mins. (it's not as long as I thought)
Medieval 10 (The Siege of Lemcastle) - removed the wooden block next to the catapult. (manual containment is needed there anyway)

[geoo]

I played through the Highland tribe, the first video is from v4.2, so I replayed level 5 again with the changes from v5.0.
The videos are quite long, I could probably cut the time in half if I used savestates (or had been less adamant to conserve skills)...

https://youtu.be/7dPzEN_Z29k
https://youtu.be/riFHf1lFS-s

Not sure when I'll have time to go through the next tribe, or maybe we'll schedule a race with Simon, but I wanted to get this out at least.

[Ste Woz Ere]

Thanks for the videos, it's great to have you on board. My thoughts on it:

Spoiler

Highland 5 - for some reason, everyone who tested it so far found the more difficult top route...luckily I was able to fix it in 5.0.
Highland 8 - I forgot about that glitch...even though it's escapable, adding an extra minute won't hurt.
Highland 9 - looks like I have another backroute to fix in the middle, as the rock climber is indeed meant to come from below.
Highland 10 - it's a bold concept and by nature will have many solutions, but I really do like it. Your solution was quite impressive too, but I think I can force the other twister to be used in the intended spot.

And this also means that unlike the previous major version, this one didn't have to wait long for an intermediate update:

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Version 6.1 has been released
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Highland 8 (Loch Lemond Storage Tank) - added 1 min.
Highland 9 (Sky-High Installation) - removed the block in the middle and moved the trapdoor down a bit (to prevent anyone escaping). Also added some red blocks to make the top twister section a bit less risky on the fall.
Highland 10 (Ten Brown Barrels) - raised the height of the red building (to prevent the easy mortar escape), removed the metal from the tall shafts (no longer needed). Also moved the trapdoors around so the one just above the water is now first.
Circus 10 (Deca-Dance) - reworked the rightmost yellow trapdoor (so it no longer requires a bridge), added 5 jumpers.
Classic 10 (Random Lemming Pun) - reworked the terrain under the centre trapdoor. (to make controlling it a lot easier, and to avoid a potentially misleading path at the start)
Medieval 10 (The Siege of Lemcastle) - added more room to the trapdoor by the lake.

[geoo]

I managed to squeeze in another session before I'm out for a month, this time with savestates.

I revisited Highland 9 and 10, and then went through the Circus tribe. Circus still seems to have a whole lot of backroutes, but those levels that don't had some nice puzzles to offer.

Highland 9-10
Circus 1-4 (and having a look at Circus 5)
Circus 5-10

In an earlier post you asked about how the difficulty compares to QFK2. I think your levels are a bit more open-ended, with larger skill sets than QFK2, which to me makes them feel a bit easier to figure out but also a bit tricker to execute (as there's more stuff to be done), though the extra skills often alleviate the execution woes a bit. QFK most of the time had fewer skill placements (pretty much just those essential to the main puzzle), and whenever possible the terrain was shaped to make these easy to execute.

[Ste Woz Ere]

Nicely done. Next tribe is going quite slowly, so plenty of time to catch up a bit.

Spoiler

Circus 2 - there is a quicker way to do it.
Circus 3 - definitely a backroute, albeit a very clever one.
Circus 4 - I've seen a few backroutes around the exit, but they all have a bit too much precision. (it's kinda hard to prevent them though)
Circus 5 - I kinda like both routes, but the alternative one (which you did) does leave the cannon bit until last, which is a no-no unless you have huge amounts of time. Not sure if I should block one off or not.
Circus 6 - ballooning over the pit is a lot easier than up through a laser hole (and still not the intended route - but again, as you mentioned earlier, these levels are more open-ended)
Circus 7 - one of my favourite puzzles. The reason I add so many twisters (unless it breaks the level) is because they're so unreliable and fiddly to use.
Circus 8 - oh dear, that's embarrassing... (can be easily fixed though)
Circus 9 - another backroute, but can also be fixed.

Anyway, here's another update for those pesky clowns:

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Version 6.2 has been released
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Circus 3 (Jack in t'Box) - added metal to fix a backroute.
Circus 5 (The Weighting Room) - added 1 min.
Circus 8 (Roadblock) - straightened up the roadblock itself (metal), to fix a backroute.
Circus 9 (RGB Nightclub) - added metal above the blue trapdoor, to fix a backroute.

[Ste Woz Ere]

And so we reach the halfway point...and not for the first time I have my doubts about the way it's progressing. I know my levels are somewhat bigger than QFK2's with more to do in each one, and that's kinda how I like them...but I also get the impression that sort of design isn't popular. My design philosophy is also different, favouring strong (often unusual) themes (along with the odd gimmick) and designing around those (unless I have a strong puzzle idea).

What do people think - should they be smaller? Fewer skills? Terrain favouring execution rather than theme? Or is it better to be a stark contrast to QFK2 but with more bits that could go wrong?

(sorry for rambling on, it's what goes on in a level designer's head sometimes. Doesn't help that the twister was in the first 2 tribes though...leading to a bad first impression on the execution side)

Anyway, onto the release...this tribe took a bit longer than the others (partly due to RL) but it had some cool bits and another really good aerial combo. The accidental discovery of a new feature late on didn't help matters (cue the rush to incorporate it into a few levels), but it's finally done:

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Version 7.0 has been released
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Outdoor - tribe is now complete.

Medieval 3 (Acrobatic Outlaw) - added 1 stacker. (I realised there wasn't enough redundancy built in)

[Ste Woz Ere]

It's been a surprisingly sunny autumn so far, which goes nicely with the next tribe.  Having the platformer again* made for some nice combos, and I like making useless skills useful. Also did some interesting feats of architecture, given the odd terrain shapes and lack of 45° slopes (thankfully the sculpting was nowhere near as annoying as Outdoor, as the tiles align much better...though I'm not looking forward to sculpting Cavelem)

* apologies builder fans, but I'm just finding the platformer more useful overall atm. Once I'm done with the next tribe though, the builders will come out in force.

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Version 8.0 has been released
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Beach - tribe is now complete.

Highland 10 (Ten Brown Barrels) - altered the height of 2 buildings, removed 1 twister, added 2 mortars. (twist-through-the-ceiling was my first QFK2 backroute, but I can't seem to force it here...instead the 2nd twister was used for backroutes)
Circus 5-6 - swapped places.
Circus 7-9 - moved 9 forward two places, pushing 7 & 8 back one.