[Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (12 tribes complete, needs testing)

[Ste Woz Ere]

Spoiler

Sports 6 - I think that's my fault for not making it obvious that the pole vault is done at the start...although that cheesy backroute is still there too. I think I can sort it though.
Sports 7 - There appears to be several solutions for each puzzle in there...some I can block, others I can't. (at least I can preserve the main puzzle, ie. the pole vault)

And now onto the next build:

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Version 13.9 has been released
====================

Sports 5 (Dynamic Duo) - lengthened the runner pit near the end and added a block to ensure that the climber has to go through first. Also -3 shimmiers, to prevent both lemmings from jumping there & back across the water. (these measures should make it a bit tighter)
Sports 6 (A Mountain to Climb) - reworked the top area, to make the opening puzzle more obvious. Also added metal down the shaft to fix a backroute.
Sports 7 (The Gulf in Class) - slight changes to the first 2 areas, to disable and re-enable certain solutions.

Shadow 10 (Pockets of Resistance) - slightly enlarged the central building and lined it with metal, to fix a very clever backroute. Also shortened the hanging building and moved the clouds to maintain the gap.

Cavelem 2 (Land vs. Sea vs. Air) - added metal to the top ledge, put a hole in the basin, changed a few skills to prevent backroutes.
Cavelem 4 (Ruined Temple) - removed some rock at the temple exit, -2 builders, +1 stacker.  (this increases the difficulty slightly)
Cavelem 5 (Lem of the Dump) - more changes to prevent shortcutting.

Space 8 (Beam Me Somewhere Shotty) - removed the airlock by the trapdoor, -2 builders, +1 glue pourer. (this makes it more difficult and more appropriate for it's slot)
Space 9 (Space Glue Factory) - minor terrain changes for easier execution.

Polar 2 (Piste Off) - added metal underneath the top area and reworked the bottom to fix backroutes.
Polar 3 (Icy Races) - replaced the leftmost water with a pit and slope, +1 flamethrower, -1 stacker. (changing the solution slightly)

[kieranmillar]

Part 16: https://youtu.be/LACgj1bzVGA

[Ste Woz Ere]

Spoiler

Sports 8 - I knew there'd still be a way to break it...in this case by mining high enough to hit the wall and turn him round (the idea was to prevent the climber rescuing his own trapdoor, by making it so that the runner from the other trapdoor has to come down and do it). That can be sorted with a metal block, albeit at the cost of making that miner fairly precise. (it is a miner though, and the terrain tells you where to place it)

Sports 9 - The place you failed at was the runner and the loop...he doesn't need to do either. Once he's gone inside and turned the 2nd valve off/on again, he can stay there until the climber from below has gone back up to turn the 1st valve on again. Then he mines out and goes over to turn off the 1st valve one last time.

The runner is actually redundant atm (he's meant to be used for the platforms), so I think I'll alter the top section to make him needed (removing the 3rd climber too). Either that or remove the runner altogether, which I'm a bit reluctant to do. (as it only appears in this tribe)

Sports 10 - given it's one of "those" levels, I will offer a little advice when you play it...once the bottom is safe, sort the exit out first. (it'll take a few goes to learn it)

[Ste Woz Ere]

Time for a new build, with various random things:

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Version 13.10 has been released
====================

Highland 10 (Ten Brown Barrels) - shortened all the ledges down the centre, to prevent ropes from reaching across to any of them above the exit ledge.

Circus 10 (Deca-Dance) - moved some terrain up/down and added some metal, in order to add a 2nd twister.

Classic 3 (A Race of Halves) - extended the metal block near the exit downwards, to fix a backroute.

Medieval 3 (Hack & Slash) - removed an erronious trapdoor. (ugh)
Medieval 9 (Tower of Maidens) - removed a fencer and 2 rollers.
Medieval 10 (The Siege of Lemcastle) - reduced platformers & stackers to 3 each. Added 4 miners, 5 archers and some wooden blocks, as a result. (unfortunately this makes the level even harder, but it was the only way to prevent bridging all the way across to the castle)

Egyptian 6 (Tomb of Ikea) - added metal to the ledges in the puzzle area. (it was possible to backroute after the stomper was added)
Egyptian 9 (The Plunger's Tomb) - added metal to fix a very clever backroute. (that I found myself)

Outdoor 2 (Race for Life) - added more metal above the exit.
Outdoor 6 (Not Mushroom Out There) - changed the face plant at the bottom, so it can't be blown up anymore.

Beach 3 (Fall & Rise of Reg Lemmy) - moved the small clam ledge up a bit. (possible glider backroute)
Beach 4 (Everybody Do the Flop!) - reverted the previous change to the sand pile at the foot of the cliff.
Beach 6 (Little Fluffy Clouds) - removed a couple of skills, to tighten the management even more.
Beach 7 (Beach Hut BBQ) - extended the metal on the slope all the way down to the water. (to fix a backroute that starts by the exit)
Beach 8 (Sandy Cove) - removed an erronious test trapdoor. (ugh)

Sports 3 (Letting Off Steam) - lowered part of the bottom section, as the fencer could get up unaided before.
Sports 8 (Switcheroo) - added a metal block to prevent the miner from finishing up too high.
Sports 9 (Remote Control) - altered the top section and -1 rock climber, to make the runner mandatory.

Shadow 6 (Scraping the Sky) - added a small block to the upward indoor section. (it was still possible to backroute)
Shadow 10 (Pockets of Resistance) - moved the top right trapdoor back to it's proper location. (ugh)

Space 8 (Beam Me Somewhere Shotty) - removed 2 builders, after discovering they weren't needed to go over the purple teleporter.

Polar 8 (The Crevasse) - added metal to the thinnest section (another self-discovered backroute fix) and a new puzzle to the bottom section. (the level wasn't really hard enough)

[Ste Woz Ere]

And another one, with more random things...but with a major focus on tieing down the number of various skills used (to prevent backroutes by being able to save a skill or two). I also found myself fixing stuff simply by removing skills and/or time. (so there are a few levels where the time limit is an indicator of the wrong solution)

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Version 13.11 has been released
====================

Highland 2 (Pillars of Hebrides) - raised the height of the pillars and exit. (I still managed to backroute it)
Highland 3 (McLem's Drunken Dream) - extended the first cloud you land on (to make it easier) and added some skills just in case.
Highland 4 (Lemfidditch Distillery) - raised the bottom of the water pit. (for easier twistering)
Highland 6 (The Iron-Rich Mountain) - +5 twisters (it is upwards after all) and -1 roper, which now forces a choice between an easier start and an easier end.

Circus 3 (Jack in t'Box) - -4 laser blasters, as it was possible to bypass the cannon. (unfortunately making it a little harder)
Circus 4 (Don't Capture the Flag) - reworked the trapdoor areas and some of the skillset. (which finally fixes the backroute, along with now requiring only 1 lemming from each side to travel round)
Circus 5 (Across the Abyss) - lowered the trapdoor (as a hint) and -2 mins. (I can't force either solution without being too nasty, but I can make the alternative solution a little harder.  I have cleared it in just over 3 mins with multi-tasking, though)
Circus 6 (The Weighting Room) - -2 mins, to force the original solution. (it's nice that time limits can be used in this way)
Circus 9 (Roadblock) - slight change to the terrain on the red/yellow side.

Medieval 2 (Cave of Knaves) - slight tweak to the roof of the SW cave (more headroom) and replaced 2 builders with 3 archers. (they weren't really involved much in the construction)
Medieval 3 (Hack & Slash) - removed some skills and 2 mins. (to force a harder version of the solution, and also to introduce a certain trick a few levels earlier)
Medieval 6 (White Cliffs of Dunder) - slight tweaks to the skillset.
Medieval 7 (Dungeon & Dragon) - slight tweaks to the skillset.
Medieval 8 (Siege Engine Graveyard) - added a metal strip (to prevent an alternative way to the middle trapdoor) and tweaked the skillset.

Egyptian 2 (Stomp Like an Egyptian) - altered the terrain under the trapdoor (it was still possible to save a stomper here)
Egyptian 3 (Night Boat to Duat) - added metal all the way along between the 2 paths (backroute fix), -2 fillers. (not needed)
Egyptian 7 (Sidestepping Evolution) - +1 shimmier, to make the final action a bit easier.
Egyptian 10 (Mandatory Pyramid Level) - +2 bashers, in case the stomper on the right side gets out of place.

Outdoor 3 (Under the Growth) - removed a few skills, as it was still possible to bypass the flicker snail.
Outdoor 4 (In Order: Down, Along, Up) - shortened the wooden ledge at the top. (for easier ballooning)
Outdoor 5 (Treetop Village) - +2 ballooners. (for cancelling skills)
Outdoor 6 (Not Mushroom Out There) - added some skills in case things go wrong early on. (or if a 2nd worker is wanted)
Outdoor 8 (Sinkhole Rescue Team) - reverted the scoopers/bombers to 2 each. (quicker and easier for the right-side tunnelling)
Outdoor 10 (The Plantshaft) - added a vine to help the top-left trapdoor, and a few more skills to ease the pressure a bit.

Beach 3 (Fall & Rise of Reg Lemmy) - added some gliders and removed some platformers.
Beach 4 (Everybody Do the Flop!) - made the sandy cliff slope downward a little in front of the exit. (it was possible to backroute by having it flat with sand piles on)
Beach 6 (Little Fluffy Clouds) - replaced the floating island with a cloud and the sand pourer with a flamethrower. (it is now a completely sandless Beach level)
Beach 7 (Beach Hut BBQ) - added 1 more bit of metal to prevent gliding from the exit platform.
Beach 8 (Sandy Cove) - enlarged the island slightly. (so no need to pour sand on a pointy bit)

Sports 6 (A Mountain to Climb) - lowered the shuttlecocks to ensure that the crowd has to pass through them (important to know for L10). Also -2 archers and -2 platformers. (not needed)

Shadow 3 (Filling Station) - added a bit of metal around the sewers. (bazookas are surprisingly good at backrouting)
Shadow 6 (Scraping the Sky) - added more metal around the cannon room. (I backrouted it myself)
Shadow 9 (Mission: Impassable) - altered the terrain and the skillset, to finally kill the alternative route.

Cavelem 5 (Lem of the Dump) - reworked the water and the dino section (finally fixing the backroute) and added another puzzle for good measure. Also +1 spearer, -1 builder.
Cavelem 8 (Up in the Jungle) - removed a few skills to prevent an alternative route that bypassed the main puzzle.
Cavelem 9 (Devolution of Lemmings) - slight rework of mid-level terrain, to tie down the number of builders used (there was a couple of spots where you might use 1 or 2, and the level will break if there are 3 spares). +2 builders as a result.

Space 6 (JMC Mining Complex) - slight tweak to the left cave, to ensure safe magno-booting.
Space 7 (Laser Quest) - removed some skills and the end off the starting ledges, as the level was taking a bit too long to complete.

Polar 4 (It's All Downhill!) - lowered the entire level slightly. (so it doesn't appear to be quite such a big drop into the exit cave)
Polar 8 (The Crevasse) - added more metal to the previously-added metal.

[Ste Woz Ere]

I've recently been recording some of the video playthroughs, and having fun in the process. Been making a bunch of changes along the way, and will put up a release candidate when I'm done.

I've also discovered the existence of DOSBox-X, which has savestates built-in by default. (I used it to run Win 98 so I could play Swiv 3D using savestates)
Link added to the main page.

[jkapp76]

https://u.pcloud.link/publink/show?code=XZAHhOVZqUmQzmyvPnRJqtcULY4T5L8sNvkX

I just updated my portable version of Lemmings 2 to include this level pack as well as Kieran's

Just unzip to a folder and choose one of the three optional packs to play.

[Ste Woz Ere]

The videos are done, took a while but it was great fun. It also uncovered a whole host of issues and improvements to be made, in fact over a third of the levels got changed in some way. Some got easier, some got harder, some got fixed, some got improved.

The changes are mainly to fix backroutes and improve the execution side, which is always going to be an issue with levels of this size and difficulty in a game with 51 skills and a finicky fan. That's why I recommend the use of savestates, just like how everyone uses player aids in NL etc. to negate it there:

DOSBox with savestates

DOSBox-X (savestates built-in by default)

This version is a release candidate - so if you have played the previous version, please let me know if you found anything that needs fixing or improving (especially on the last 3 tribes) so I can make it as good as possible.

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Version 13.12 has been released
====================

Highland 6 (The Iron-Rich Mountain) - improved the water trap, so it looks slightly less ugly. (damn crawlers)
Highland 8 (Loch Lemmond Storage Tank) - restored the scenery to the cave ceiling, and +1 mortar to help get through it.
Highland 10 (Ten Brown Barrels) - reverted the +1 twister change from earlier, and replaced it with 3 mortars. (I did like the creativity involved with using the 2nd one, but it made it possible to bypass part of the puzzle)

Circus 1 (Base Camp) - a couple of cosmetic changes.
Circus 3 (Jack in t'Box) - swapped with L4, thinned out the roof of the inside (for easier ballooning), added/moved metal. (so it was possible to add 4 laser blasters without causing a backroute at the cannon)
Circus 4 (Don't Capture the Flag) - swapped with L3.
Circus 6 (The Weighting Room) - added 4 laser blasters. (it could get too close for comfort)
Circus 10 (Deca-Dance) - reverted the +1 twister change from earlier (it was causing puzzle bypasses), reworked terrain slightly (adding even more room for the remaining twister), -2 platformers (not needed), +3 superlems. (more room for error)

Classic 7 (Stepping Up & Down) - reworked some terrain (it was still possible to backroute) and all the scenery. Renamed to "Rising Column Scene" as a result. (an L1 reference to the new scenery)

Medieval 1 (Base Camp) - fixed the catapult to look right. (cosmetic)
Medieval 2 (Cave of Knaves) - swapped with L6 (too hard for it's current slot). Shortened 2 ledges and removed some bridges as a result. (now it's a bit harder like a concept level such as this should be, with some archery tricks from vanilla Sports 10 thrown in)
Medieval 3 (Hack & Slash) - swapped with L4.
Medieval 4 (Finishing the Arc) - swapped with L3.
Medieval 5 (Acrobatic Outlaw) - added wooden boards to each side of the water and slowed the release rate. (it was a little too hard to click the roller and get the first stack up in time)
Medieval 6 (White Cliffs of Dunder) - swapped with L2 (too easy for it's current slot, and moving it also works thematically and as an introduction to the tribe's heavy construction specialty). Also added some wall brackets to the top trapdoor. (so the rescuer can't escape)
Medieval 7 (Dungeon & Dragon) - added some markers into the ground by the tall tree. (to give a clearer indication of where to build from)
Medieval 8 (Siege Engine Graveyard) - carved a vertical wall into the rockface near the start (to remove the climber who was awkward to control) and altered the skillset a little.
Medieval 9 (Tower of Maidens) - raised the height of the side holes all the way up, reworked the exit area, reduced rollers to 5 and the timer to 5 mins. This kills off the backroute where 1 lemming could do all the work before the crowd got there, at the expense of changing it to a race against the clock. Renamed to "Tower of Madness" as a result.

Egyptian 2 (Stomp Like an Egyptian) - moved to L3.
Egyptian 3 (Night Boat to Duat) - moved to L4, added metal to the outside ledge, +1 carpet, -1 basher, -1 stomper. (backroute fixes)
Egyptian 4 (Wade in the Water) - moved to L2 (it's more novelty than puzzly), reworked the drop-down to the exit area.
Egyptian 8 (The Chambers of Cain) - removed some excess skills and added 1 filler.
Egyptian 10 (Mandatory Pyramid Level) - added a block under the central trapdoor on the right side (makes it easier to get the stomper in the right place), and -2 bashers. (to prevent their use on the pyramid itself)

Outdoor 2 (Race for Life) - reworked the bottom slightly, removed some excess skills.
Outdoor 3 (Under the Growth) - major rework of the area between the last 2 cave sections (including an extra flicker snail) and -1 platformer.
Outdoor 4 (In Order: Down, Along, Up) - added 1 planter, in case the worker needs to turn round at the top.
Outdoor 7 (The Irrigation Pond) - re-added the 4th trapdoor (top left) and replaced most scoopers with bombers. (it's more reliable in most areas)
Outdoor 9 (Swamp Thing) - added a thin grass layer under the left trapdoor. (makes it easier to get out with a planter)
Outdoor 10 (The Plantshaft) - reworked the ledge under the middle right trapdoor (top of vine ladder), making it easier/more reliable to tunnel into.

Beach 7 (Beach Hut BBQ) - complete rework of the middle section, and altered the skills as a result. (the glider puzzle is still there, but it wasn't really working in it's previous form)

Sports 8 (Switcheroo) - added 1 min. (way too tight)
Sports 10 (Mastered Doubles) - moved the red blocks closer to the steam vent, making it easier to find and execute the right mining spot. (that was my main concern in this level)

Shadow 3 (Filling Station) - moved a metal block into it's right place. (bug fix)
Shadow 9 (Mission: Impassable) - added 1 rock climber. (an extra lemming up top is helpful for speeding things up)
Shadow 10 (Pockets of Resistance) - added a wedge to the bottom right trapdoor, and removed some excess bombers.

Cavelem 2 (Land vs. Sea vs. Air) - altered the mid-level terrain (for easier management of the walkers), removed an excess stacker.

Space 3 (Orbital Bombardment) - swapped with L4, removed the metal in the cave walls, added some skills. This alters the solution so it's completely different on the right side of the level. (as a result it's more complex, but no longer a boring symmetrical novelty level)
Space 4 (Alien Hideout) - swapped with L3. (because of the above changes)
Space 5 (Defying Gravity) - lowered the exit (so it's not possible to fail at the end now) and improved the scenery.
Space 6 (JMC Mining Complex) - improved the pit area next to the left trapdoor (less likely to break into it now), removed 2 builders (not needed) and +3 mortars. (to give you a choice of explosions)
Space 8 (Beam Me Somewhere Shotty) - slowed the release rate (easier to set up the attractor now) and a slight change to the skillset.

Polar 5 (Eskimo Beat) - slight rework of the floor in the bottom-right corner. (it was still possible to backroute there)
Polar 6 (Ice Box Challenge) - slight rework of the cave ceiling (easier to scoop down into now), raised the top left trapdoor up a little. (so the stacker is required now)
Polar 7 (Research Outpost) - added a flamethrower, in case it's needed for error correction.
Polar 9 (Avalanche Rescue Team) - removed the scooper and moved the bottom-left trapdoor into the next cave up. (backroute fix)

https://u.pcloud.link/publink/show?code=XZAHhOVZqUmQzmyvPnRJqtcULY4T5L8sNvkX

I just updated my portable version of Lemmings 2 to include this level pack as well as Kieran's

Just unzip to a folder and choose one of the three optional packs to play.

Sorry to bring the bad news, but can you update it again with this version?

[jkapp76]

It's not bad news at all. The download is now updated and uses the same download link as before.
I completely remade the selection menu for this too.

https://u.pcloud.link/publink/show?code=XZAHhOVZqUmQzmyvPnRJqtcULY4T5L8sNvkX

[GreyMongoose]

Potential bug report:

In the first level of the Sports tribe, several animations are invisible, such as the swinging of the rock climber or the shrug of the platformer. But how would a level file affect those shared animations?

[kieranmillar]

Potential bug report:

In the first level of the Sports tribe, several animations are invisible, such as the swinging of the rock climber or the shrug of the platformer. But how would a level file affect those shared animations?

My understanding of how it woks is as follows, it's just a guess based on observations, I don't know the exact specifics:

Each skill consumes some amount of "sprite memory". The game is very old and could only allocate so much space for animations in memory at a time. If you go over the allotted space, some animations will not show up, so the lemming will be invisible when those animations would play. Shruggers and danglers always seemed to be the first ones to drop for some reason, maybe they were always allocated last, perhaps trying to save on space by checking if any skills that need those are being used, and so only adding them once?

When you play in practice mode you can see that when you pick some skills, others are disabled. It's always the most sprite-intensive ones that are disabled first. It seems the developers were aware of this limitation and so stopped you picking skill combinations that would send you over the limit, and they avoided those in their official levels. The editing tools for custom levels don't stop us going over the limit, and so we see the consequences of that.

Skills with lots of rotations, like rock climber and superlem, eat up a lot of memory. So do ones with long animations like kayaker and pole vaulter. Meanwhile skills like jumper barely make a dent.

The bug is happening because the level has too many sprite-hungry skills available.

[Ste Woz Ere]

I believe it only affects the first level in Sports, though, which is the starter level.

(probably caused by the 4 different steam vents in the left-side display section...the other levels have no more than 2)