[Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (12 tribes complete, needs testing)

[Ste Woz Ere]

Great to hear from you again:

Spoiler

Shadow 2 - looks like the pit is causing issues. The lemming will slide into the gap, but I didn't think it would appear too small for that...I probably need to make it bigger. (and a similar gap in L5)

Sports 2 - Definitely a backroute there, taking the whole crowd across the top. Nice solution though, probably easier than the intended one. (apart from the pixel-precision miner)

Re: scenery - everything is solid except for sun, moon & stars. (and objects ofc)

The more I think about it though, the more I think I've actually made this harder than QFK2 - and that's just on the puzzles. (not counting the larger level sizes and skill counts)

[kieranmillar]

Here's part 10. I didn't look at your comments before recording this, in fact I've only just seen them.

https://youtu.be/mvgAA9m7KdY

This pack continues to be excellent and a lot of fun. Is it harder than QFK2? I have no idea, I am a poor judge of the difficulty of my own levels, but for sure this pack is quite tough. But I think it's a good difficulty level so far.

[kieranmillar]

Part 11 https://youtu.be/ez-YM5-var0

[Ste Woz Ere]

Nice vids of Shadow so far.  It was one of my favourite tribes to make, due to the setting and the skillset. (the bomber being a lot more flexible than I originally thought, which compensates for having just explosions to tunnel with)

Anyway, onto some notes:

Spoiler

Shadow 3 - I spent ages trying to make that one break-proof, and I still failed   Easy to fix though, and still a neat solution. (though I think you know the correct one now, from the youtube comments)
Shadow 4 - You actually solved the falling puzzle right at the start (in your commentary) but I'm still impressed that you managed to cheese it.
Shadow 5 - Not quite the right way (this one is almost a disjoint union like L3), but another good alternative.
Shadow 6 - I didn't think a shimmier could cross over a hole in the ceiling like that, as a result you did backroute it that way. The correct one is building into the cloud to turn round and jump onto the outside wall, hopefully people will try to find out if clouds are solid. (if they haven't played the 2 cloud-based levels in other tribes)
Shadow 7 - This one has multiple solutions due to it's length (I added a 3rd rope just for that). Mine is a more thematic one (monkeying around the sewers like ninjas do) but yours works just as well.

And this leads onto a new build - please use this one, as it contains fixes to the remaining Shadow levels. (which you are about to play)

====================
Version 13.6 has been released
====================

Sports 2 (The Stadium Underbelly) - reworked some areas (notably around the trapdoor), changed some skill amounts.
Sports 5 (Dynamic Duo) - reworked the start area to remove the chance of breaking the main concept.
Sports 7 (The Gulf in Class) - reworked the first area, changed some skill amounts.
Sports 8 (Switcheroo) - reworked the bottom left corner and added some skills, altered the release rate. (it was still possible to break the main concept)
Shadow 2 (Urban Gymnastics) - moved the postbox to the right, removed a brick near the weird pit, +1 filler.
Shadow 3 (Filling Station) - removed a few bricks from under the 2nd trap tunnel. (backroute fix)
Shadow 4 (Air Raid) - extended the metal dividers between the underground trapdoors. (backroute fix)
Shadow 5 (Water Works) - added a long metal strip between the two trapdoor areas. (backroute fix)
Shadow 6 (Scraping the Sky) - partly reworked the area around the thin shaft and traps. (backroute fix)
Shadow 8 (Production Line) - added 2 exits, removed some scenery and all the bazookas, +3 bombers. (it was still possible to break the main puzzle)
Shadow 9 (Mission: Impassible) - restored the bazookas, there are now 12 of each explosion.
Shadow 10 (Pockets of Resistance) - carved out a niche in the central shaft, to ensure that no rock climbers can escape. Also +5 bombers, as it was a little too tight.

[geoo]

I played Outdoor and Beach (except for Beach 1, because for some reason there was a different level there): https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJNO01n86P6LXjn6NNxy1EYVWc9LtCYFu
A lot of backroutes again, I think.

As for comparing to QFK2, I think the execution is harder here, but finding the solutions is a bit easier because the levels tend to be a bit more open-ended. Then again, I'm mostly finding backroutes so far, so maybe once they are fixed, it'll be a bit harder.

[geoo]

Also played through the Sports tribe now, that was definitely one of my favourites so far.

[Ste Woz Ere]

Really appreciate this guys, thanks a lot.

I was about to do another update with Outdoor/Beach fixes, now I shall hold off until I've seen the Sports video.

(btw, I checked the 13.6 zipfile and Beach 1 is fine...it must be because the editor uses that level slot and something got corrupted)

[Ste Woz Ere]

Nice videos. Outdoor does seem broken in places, and Beach seems to be made of cheese rather than sand. I actually think Sports is one of the hardest tribes in the pack, so glad to hear you enjoyed it.

Spoiler

Outdoor 2 – That's a backroute, should be easy to sort.
Outdoor 3 – The bad thing about the flicker is that you can't walk onto it...unless you build a bridge first.
Outdoor 4 – There are a few vanilla L1/L2 references in the pack, that was the first one I thought of (also the very first level idea I had). The only issue appears to be CC at the top, a bit of metal under the trapdoor should solve that.
Outdoor 6 – at one point I thought you were going to bomb the mushroom next to the flicker (which would've been a backroute), but instead came up with a neat alternative use for the rope.
Outdoor 7 – ballooning directly out from under the tree wasn't intended (it's a bit tight), but I can fix that.
Outdoor 8 – looks like a redesign is needed here, I didn't think it could be done that easily.
Outdoor 9 – and here too, the solution wasn't the one I thought of. I do like it though, so I'll make it the new solution (albeit a little harder). And the intended solution is also used in Shadow, so it's still in the game.
Outdoor 10 – I have to admit that sometimes I worry about the execution requirement on these L10's...but I was trying to do something different, and provide an epic finale to each tribe.

Beach 2 – I was actually aware that this one was broken, but didn't fix it before this video went up. (btw, the flamethrowers are there to prevent the 50/50 scooper dilemma)
Beach 3 – Very nice...you even used the intended solution from the previous level. A single block of metal will fix it though.
Beach 4 – Oops, looks like I need to make that fall a splat distance.
Beach 6 – One little cloud broke the whole level. I'd not taken the cloud below the trapdoor into account either, so I'll alter the top half of the solution accordingly.
Beach7   - Nice move with the left trapdoor. This one might get re-designed anyway, but for now I'll add another set of beach huts to fix it.
Beach 8 – Nicely done, I didn't think of scooping directly onto the metal. The big sand pile was also a backroute as you suspected.
Beach 9 – There is a way to CC at the start, but tbh I don't like it's reliability (which is why there are so many divers). I've thought of a better (and thematic) way to do it though, so I'll add the extra skills.
Beach 10 – The same (unreliable CC) method was meant to be used in the bottom-right corner (to surf each lemming across), so I might set up the new method there, too.

Sports 2 – Everyone seems to like the top route...think I can sort it though. Surprised that you said there were no jumpers...would've been much easier if you remembered the shimmiers.
Sports 3 – Same with this level. And if one fencer tunnel isn't high enough, there's always two.
Sports 4 – Damnit, I knew there'd still be a way to break it. Reducing skills should fix it though.
Sports 5 – Ditto. All I can do is remove a fencer, which leaves you needing to fence the right way. Pause always works though.
Sports 6 – Very clever backroute, but changing the solution can fix it. (no more mining down)
Sports 7 – Some lovely irony going on here. You used my original solution to the 1st room, in the 2nd room. (I removed it because it was relying on knowledge of that weird quirk that rock climbers have, by not going over vertical arrows). I can disable that solution in both rooms, though. (you were right about the pole vaulter, but you'd built the bridge too high in the video)
Sports 8 – Bit hacky but yes, another one that needed fixing to preserve the main concept.
Sports 9 – There is a much quicker way to finish it (sending the crowd up and using the runner to lay the bridges instead of sending the rock climber up on his own), but I've added some time anyway.  As for visual indicators...the darts near each valve are giving a clue, but tbh this tribe is quite poor for that sort of thing. (as are most of them)
Sports 10 – And again...you used my original solution to the top-left trapdoor (it was a narrower gap so you could fence a hole in the far side to climb into).  I am going to lower the exit a bit (you didn't need to fire from so far back btw) and add some miners, to prevent running out completely.

And this leads onto a new build with many changes:

====================
Version 13.7 has been released
====================

Outdoor 2 (Race for Life) - extended the metal above the exit. (to match the metal below)
Outdoor 3 (Under the Growth) - replaced the fence post by the flicker with a metal block.
Outdoor 4 (In Order: Down, Along, Up) - added some metal under the trapdoor area. (safer CC)
Outdoor 6 (Not Mushroom Out There) - replaced the mushroom by the flicker with a metal block.
Outdoor 7 (The Irrigation Pond) - lowered the tree down a touch. (to prevent ballooning directly out)
Outdoor 8 (Sinkhole Rescue Team) - redesigned the middle, removed the 2nd trapdoor, raised the exits, altered some skill amounts.
Outdoor 9 (Swamp Thing) - removed the long vine sticking out of the tree on the left side.
Outdoor 10 (The Plantshaft) - redesigned the buried trapdoor near the exit.

Beach 2 (The Sand Pit) - extended the pit to prevent it being cheesed.
Beach 3 (Fall & Rise of Reg Lemmy) - added a metal block to prevent it being cheesed.
Beach 4 (Everybody Do the Flop!) - raised a ledge up to prevent it being cheesed.
Beach 6 (Little Fluffy Clouds) - removed a little cloud to prevent it being cheesed. Also extended the cloud below the trapdoor, -1 diver, +3 flamethrowers. (a little bit of skill management going in there)
Beach 7 (Beach Hut BBQ) - added another column of beach huts to the left trapdoor to prevent it being cheesed.
Beach 8 (Sandy Cove) - some alterations to the cave itself. Also +2 surfers.
Beach 9 (Dune Climbing Contest) - added some sand and 1 platformer, to make the CC easier.
Beach 10 (Artificial Resort) - added 1 platformer, to make the CC in that area easier. (there was enough sand already)

Sports 2 (The Stadium Underbelly) - slight rework of the trapdoor area (again), this time adding a wall and 2 rock climbers.
Sports 3 (Letting off Steam) - removed the scenery-only steam jets, and added a slight visual clue for the valve.
Sports 4 (Hold the Line) - reduced fencers and archers to 1, miners by 1, added a few shimmiers and tweaked a couple of areas.
Sports 5 (Dynamic Duo) - removed a fencer, as it was the only way to preserve the main concept. (unfortunately that means you now have to fence the right way, but pausing always seems to work)
Sports 6 (A Mountain to Climb) - carved a metal-floored path under the valves, added wedges to enable a rock climber to get up to the top area. (instead of mining down from the valves)
Sports 7 (The Gulf in Class) - altered the ceilings to prevent shimmiers from crossing. (so many great solutions in this tribe, that I have to remove one to protect another)
Sports 8 (Switcheroo) - many alterations to many parts of the level. (it was quite hard to fix this one)
Sports 9 (Remote Control) - +1 min.
Sports 10 (Mastered Doubles) - lowered the top of the pipe area (including the exit) down a touch, for easier execution. Also +5 miners for flexibility.

[kieranmillar]

Part 12. Will I finish Shadow Tribe in this video? You'll need to watch to find out!
https://youtu.be/3OAUlmet1zU

[Ste Woz Ere]

Didn't expect that:

Spoiler

Shadow 8 - one of my favourite puzzles. Slightly easier if you send 2 lemmings across the ceiling at the start, and use the 3rd rock climber to carry out the solution ahead of the crowd.
Shadow 9 - oops. I've fixed it and sent geoo a copy, as I doubt I'll get another release out before he plays it.
Shadow 10 - Never seen a crash there before (in fact the only one I've ever had was on Polar 10 when it had a cool skier trick in it). There are easier (and safer) ways to get the bottom corner trapdoors out, though. (the central shaft is another one of my favourite puzzles too)

[Ste Woz Ere]

Another new build - after fixing a Shadow backroute, I decided to check over the last 3 tribes - just in case anything was wrong. And it was:

====================
Version 13.8 has been released
====================

Shadow 9 (Mission: Impassible) - replaced the gate with metal blocks, leaving only a thin shaft for the rock climber.

Cavelem 5 (Lem of the Dump) - some slight alterations to terrain and skill counts, to prevent a backroute and CC.
Cavelem 6 (Last Rule of Bash Club) - slightly reduced the skill counts.
Cavelem 7 (The Lemcave) - added some more metal across the top of the cave.

Space 3 (Magno Force) - swapped with L4, weird pit edges removed and renamed "Alien Hideout".
Space 4 (Orbital Bombardment) - swapped with L3.
Space 6 (Laser Quest) - complete redesign of the middle, it's now puzzly instead of pure execution. Skills altered a bit too, and swapped with L7 due to increased difficulty.
Space 7 (JMC Mining Complex) - swapped with L6, slight alteration to one cave.
Space 8 (Beam Me Somewhere Shotty) - blocked the wrong side of the white teleporter. (it was a possible shortcut)

Polar 5 (Eskimo Beat) - a few changes, mainly to make the 2 big drops skier-proof. (I forgot they increase the splat distance a little)
Polar 7 (Research Outpost) - a couple of slight terrain changes, to make the solution a little less counter-intuitive.

[kieranmillar]

Part 13: https://youtu.be/-krq50fQZLQ

It looks like my recording had some framerate issues in places for some reason. Sorry about that.

[kieranmillar]

Part 14: https://youtu.be/52whP1y6q-0

[Ste Woz Ere]

Nice vids, relatively little to fix with some of these:

Spoiler

Shadow 10 - Somehow I had a feeling you'd find an alternative way down the central shaft...hence why I didn't think about bazookas being fired at animated windows. Thumbs up for finding it though, very clever. Trouble is, the only way I can fix it is to put metal around the edge of the building...which looks ugly as hell.

Sports 3 - I didn't check that you could fence up through the first wall without jumping on an arrow first...that can be sorted. The spare fencer is to make a bigger tunnel for the shimmier at the top. (so he has room to jump)
Sports 4 - There's enough time to release the 4th trapdoor after the other 3 have gone through, so there's no need to scroll & fiddle.  The original solution for the middle (under the chain swinger) was to stick an arrow in the ceiling and bridge into it, as at the time I didn't think of firing an arrow straight down. Because it's an obscure trick, I left the platformer in.
Sports 5 - Sometimes the level name is a clue, in this case there was meant to be 2 workers (and to enforce it I had to limit the skills to only 1 attempt at releasing the crowd). That was one of my best ideas for a level (re-using the trampoline-over-a-pit trick from Circus 9), glad to hear you liked it.

Regarding the rock climber turning round at the arrow, the level was originally designed to introduce that little quirk, so it was familiar when it was part of a puzzle in a later level...but later removed it from said puzzle. (it's so counter-intuitive)

There'll be another build soon (with a couple of Polar fixes and the rest of the metal trick that you noted), but I'll probably wait to see if anything else needs fixing in there.

[kieranmillar]

Part 15: https://youtu.be/lXYuvn0woL4