[SuperLemmini] Lemmings Plus I (150 Levels) [V1.2 Update]

[ericderkovits]

ok here are the replays for Psycho 11-20 except 16 as I'm not sure if it's possible.

No fixes needed for any of the levels. But Psycho 20 was extremely difficult due to the 2 minute timer. finished with only 1 second left. Also there are some extremely exact placement of skill asssignments in the level due to the time.

[kaywhyn]

Ok, NTTD was one that I was a bit worried about whether it would be possible to finish on time, but good to know it's solvable under the SL timer. Going by your comments, it sounds like you might had overcomplicated it that resulted in time coming down to the wire. The puzzle itself is not hard, it's only really hard due to the very tight timer, which is the main obstacle and hence the challenge itself but is otherwise a straightforward level without the timer. In any case, one replay is sufficient to prove that a level is possible.

I did a fresh install of super lemmini. I installed lemmings plus and the replays.
The guy still jumps in the exit every time. No kidding.

I expected this to fix the issue. I'm out of ideas now.

I'm out of ideas as well. There's probably something up with the styles in your copy, though since you said that you did a fresh install of SL and it still didn't fix the problem, that's probably not it either. However, one last thing I can think of is probably the copy of the WinLem files you're using. Do you own an actual copy, or did you use one of the download links here in order to do the extraction?

[jkapp76]

My copy of winlems is from the 90s and still works okay on windows 10.
I like how winlems shows cartoon text of the lemmings speech. And a cool start screen too.

Maybe I need to download a different copy?

[kaywhyn]

Here's a download you can try: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ugpmlpv4x6urg72/AAADQ3X8m--M4or_akcmeUo2a?dl=1. There are other download links for WinLem files in some other places somewhere on this site. See if this fixes your problem of lemmings exiting earlier than they should.

[ericderkovits]

ok here are the replays for Psycho 21-30 except 23 and 24
Again Psycho 27 No time to die (Part II) was another time cruncher, finished with only 2 seconds left.

Psycho 23 and 24 need fixes

Psycho 23
Can't dig between the 2 steel plates (below the hatch) as they're too close together. In SL the digger will not dig between the 2 plates as he hits steel even though in NL he doesn't. One does need the steel plates to be close together to compress the lemmings (like in NL). But even if you widen the gap between the 2 plates, then the lemmings won't be compressed enough to make it through the zapper traps(if the gap is widened then less than the 32 will make it)

Psycho 24
It seems putting the blocker next to the trap won't block lemmings on the right side (where in NL the blocker will) due to the traps big hitbox in SL. May have to add another blocker.

I'll let WillLem try to fix these 2 levels

The other ones no fixes needed.

[ericderkovits]

ok, great news.

I got Psycho 16 "Crosswork" to work.

replay attached.

[kaywhyn]

Ok, I was going to keep trying on Pyscho 16 once I had returned from my hiatus, but looks like that isn't necessary anymore. What I suspected about Psycho 16 being possible has been confirmed. I had a feeling it was possible all along, based on how I got it going quite far in a few of my attempts before failing, and also as it should theoretically be possible on Dos as well. The biggest difference is that it's far harder to do on SL than NL.

I have also taken a look at Psycho 24, and it is possible but currently only passable via a severe backroute. Replay attached. I should note that despite how it completely bypasses the intended route, this is still a very difficult solution to execute, as there's a lot of precision needed. I also hate how in my solution the climbers are able to get past obstacles even when there's some ceiling above that in other engines they can't. SL also has a very odd builder quirk in that it seems that builders are able to build much further into walls than usual, meaning you expect the builder to turn around after laying a builder brick that touches terrain, but he doesn't and is able to lay one more additional brick before finally turning around. This is very problematic for gaps that are about a single builder staircase length.

As for the intended route, the best I have managed is 14, meaning a fix could be to simply lower the save requirement to 14, as saving 15 seems to be out of reach. At the same time, it does require a very odd quirk of the climber. Also, it's very easy to block my backroute with steel and OWAs if it's decided that the intended route should be enforced. It's a shame the main trick for the level doesn't work in SL, while it does on both NL and Dos.

One final note: The masher trap either has a bigger trap area on SL or seems to trigger faster than it does on NL. A way I tested this is to max out the RR and release 3 lemmings in a row. In NL, the last two lemmings both get by the trap without getting killed, but on SL both the first and third lemmings get killed. I think it's a larger trap trigger, as even when placing a blocker the frame just before he steps onto the button the lemmings coming from the right get killed before they get a chance to bounce off the blocker.



So, after all this, only Psycho 23 remains elusive. Since the intended way doesn't work on SL and I have tried everything I could to see if it's still solvable, I have not been able to solve it. This one will require much thought, and it might even either require a rework, or just a replacement altogether.

[ericderkovits]

yes, I posted the backroute for Psycho 24 in NLs version of the level. And unless the level is fixed for the backroute in NL, I guess it can remain the same in SL.

But I guess WillLem can decide on the fix for the intended solution in SL as it is his project.

And as far as Psycho 23 it may need an adjustment and perhaps lower the save requirement. And again WillLem can decide on a fix for the level (if possible).

Edit: Credit Kaywhyn for finding this backroute both here in SL and I credited you also now in NL

[kaywhyn]

namida hasn't been and won't be fixing backroutes to LPI anymore for a very long time now, nor does he intend to, as it's a very old pack. Instead, the only fixes that will be made are for compatibility reasons to make sure the pack's still playable. A lot of them remain in New Formats NL, anyway, not just Psycho 24. This essentially means that the backroute will remain, although all decisions as to whether it should remain in SL should be left to WillLem for the SL conversion. The important thing was making sure that the levels were possible. Also, it's courteous to credit the person who originally found the backroute for Psycho 24 I have confirmed that it works on NL long before you posted it. I simply chose not to upload my solution because I know about namida not bothering to fix up backroutes for LPI as he considered the pack "final" a very long time ago.

For Psycho 23, it's important to realize the source of the problem, and that is if the digger goes through a lot of steel, he'll stop. Any other steel setting(s) that's tried the steel will just simply get destroyed if he's also going through solid terrain. In other words, it's not really possible to emulate NL's way of compressing the crowd via digger(s), as then they won't be tightly packed enough to minimize losses to the traps, especially since they're very fast triggering.

In my testing, the only way to achieve such compression is via a blocker inside the digger pit once low enough. However, adding a second blocker would make the level way too easy, as you can simply make a two blocker trap. A more natural fix would be to replace the traps with the slicer one, although it would also make the level too easy.

Ok, after even more testing, I seem to have a good suggested fix: Add two bombers. Different way to achieve the main NL trick and does require a skillset change, but it does get the job done and at least makes the level solvable while keeping everything else the same. It might be possible to adapt if one wants to do the compression somewhere else, although it would likely require moving the steel plates down a bit, as the wall will still be low enough for them to get out of the pit without problems.

Once again, WillLem it's up to you how you want to fix the levels, as you're the author of the conversion. I'm simply suggesting some possible ways to fix them. 

[WillLem]

Finished levels 16-30 of Danger. All levels solved without hints , with the following exceptions:

Solved with hints from LPs by IchoTolot and Swerdis, and replays by ericderkovits:

Level 16 The Oddstack
Level 18 The Buildo Station
Level 26 With Love, From Trogdor
Level 28 Coalburner

Psycho replays to follow shortly...

[WillLem]

As I'm going through the Psycho levels, I'm noticing that a fair few of them are extremely pixel-precise. Whilst this is not necessarily a bad thing on NeoLemmix, in SuperLemmini it can potentially make the levels less enjoyable. SuperLemmini is a good engine for enjoying the more execution-based challenges that the game can offer, sure, but there are degrees of enjoyability and I'd say it's a fairly sharp downward incline into annoyance when a level gives basically no margin to the player.

A bit of pixel precision on levels such as From Trogdor With Love, Lemming Crossover and Express Lane is challenging, enjoyable and satisfying to pull off. However, on levels such as The Parking Lot, Turn Back With Care and Snowed In, it just feels messy and unnecessary, especially when you've had to restart the level for the 10th time and play most of it frame-by-frame with the level paused, having already worked out the solution.

I'll continue through the Psycho levels later this evening and probably get together a list of the levels which I feel are most problematic in this regard. For now though, what are people's general thoughts on this? Should certain levels be given a bit of playing room whilst obviously preserving and maintaining their intended solutions, or should they be left exactly as they are as long as they are solvable, in spite of them being a bit too pixel-precise?

[ericderkovits]

Of the Levels you mentioned, the ones that gave me the most trouble with pixel precision were

Danger 26 With love from Trogdor - This one was very difficult due to getting the blockers placed at the end of the builders builder steps to turn around a builder to meet the wall (this one took me several tries. In SL it's much more difficult than in NL for sure.)

Psycho 2 The Parking lot I also agree was extremely difficult only because of the 1 minute timer. I solved the level with the final lemming exiting right as the
              timer turned to zero. Setting that blocker at an extreme point was very precise so that all the lemmings made it to the exit on time. I agree this level
              wasn't enjoyable. Perhaps SL's timer is a bit too fast making this level too difficult in SL. Perhaps a fix would would make it better so it's more lenient
              such as lemming count or slight terrain change.     

Lemming Crossover, Express Lane, and Turn back with care I didn't have too much problem solving with pixel precision.

Psycho 8 "Snowed in" was kinda annoying with pixel precison only to place those builders heading toward the exit. Every builder placement had to be stretched
               so the builder steps would reach onto the snow where the exit is.
               Perhaps just slightly move that snow area a tad left would help. 
             

Now as far as the remaining Psycho levels. The ones I found extremely difficult were:

Psycho 5 Lightspeed lemming. This one was very difficult due to save requirement. I think adding a few more bashers would help stalling 1 lemming to get to
              OW block a tad later would make it less annoying.

Psycho 16 Crosswork. Of course this one is super hard in SL. Not sure how to fix this one to make it less difficult.
Psycho 17 A Perfect Nightmare was pretty hard too, with skill placement and timing.

Psycho 20 and 27 No Time to Die and No Time to Die (Part II) were very difficult due to timer. Precise placement of skills needed. Not sure how to make it not so
                           difficult.

The rest of the Psycho rank levels I didn't find difficult at all, with pixel precision or timing of skills.

Of course Psycho 23 "Death Row" Needs some kind of fix. Not sure what you want to do with this one.

And Psycho 24 can only be backrouted due to masher traps big hitbox. Maybe something can be done to enforce the intended solution, otherwise leave as is and
accept the backroute solution. This one I can deal with either way. It's your decision what you want to do with this one.


             
            .

[WillLem]

Danger 26 With love from Trogdor - This one was very difficult due to getting the blockers placed at the end of the builders builder steps to turn around a builder to meet the wall (this one took me several tries. In SL it's much more difficult than in NL for sure.)

I've thought a lot about this one; I really like this level, and its intended solution is awesome. I think this is one example of the execution difficulty being very irritating but also super satisfying when you finally get it right. Adding an extra Builder could make it less annoying, buuuut it kind of also destroys the solution. Since it's the only level in Danger that's really like this, I'm mostly happy to leave it as it is.

Psycho 2 The Parking lot I also agree was extremely difficult only because of the 1 minute timer

I basically couldn't solve this level, I had to watch your replay. The fiddliness of your solution to meet the timer is unbelievable. I think this one's another example of SL's faster timer causing issues, so I've lowered the lem count & save requirement on this one.

Turn back with care I didn't have too much problem solving with pixel precision.

This one is an easy fix to allow a little bit more playing room: simply moving the trap 4px to the right makes all the difference and I feel is worth doing, since the solution is exactly the same and it just makes playing it that bit more satisfying. I bet this level is a doozy with Timed Bombers

Psycho 8 "Snowed in" was kinda annoying with pixel precison only to place those builders heading toward the exit. Every builder placement had to be stretched so the builder steps would reach onto the snow where the exit is. Perhaps just slightly move that snow area a tad left would help.

I'm thinking lowering the snow mound that the builder starts from is the answer for this one; I might also make the steel easier to get past as well. It'll mean not needing to stretch the bridge, and the miner can start sooner as well to give breathing room for the save requirement.
             

Psycho 5 Lightspeed lemming. This one was very difficult due to save requirement. I think adding a few more bashers would help stalling 1 lemming to get to OW block a tad later would make it less annoying.

I mostly agree; this one is fairly do-able to be honest, you just need to make sure you keep an eye on how many lems have died. I'm thinking 10 extra Bashers and a slightly lower save requirement would fix it, but also probably make it a bit too easy; I'll keep ruminating on this one.

Psycho 16 Crosswork. Of course this one is super hard in SL. Not sure how to fix this one to make it less difficult.
Psycho 17 A Perfect Nightmare was pretty hard too, with skill placement and timing.
Psycho 20 and 27 No Time to Die and No Time to Die (Part II) were very difficult due to timer. Precise placement of skills needed.
---
Of course Psycho 23 "Death Row" Needs some kind of fix. Not sure what you want to do with this one.

And Psycho 24 can only be backrouted due to masher traps big hitbox. Maybe something can be done to enforce the intended solution, otherwise leave as is and
accept the backroute solution. This one I can deal with either way. It's your decision what you want to do with this one.

Haven't got to these levels yet; reading the comments from yourself and kaywhyn, my instinct is that these will need some work to make them more engine-friendly.

[mobius]

This isn't aimed at said level but at level design in general:

While I missed the poll I'd lean to the "give the player more options" option when in doubt if applicable. That is; if the level is still fun and especially if people still find it a fun challenge and isn't trivial.

"Duality" by Yawg comes to mind again and again as an example of a level where several very different solutions were found, none of which matched Yawg's original and yet this level was very popular and *very* difficult, at least in it's day.

[kaywhyn]

I don't mind pixel precision, just as long as there isn't too much of it in a short amount of time. It's kind of like the occasional hidden trap, where I don't mind it at first, but put too many in a row then I will mind. Interestingly enough, I don't remember a lot of the Psycho levels having a lot of it when I did my LP of LPI near the end of last year. However, as I mentioned before, the Psycho rank is a huge step up in difficulty from the other ranks. In my experiences, I found a lot of the early Psycho levels harder than many of the later ones. 

Anyway, I've taken a look at some of the Psycho levels that were mentioned, and here are my findings/assessment:

Psycho 2 - Yea, way too much precision needed with a very unforgiving timer. I think I remember finishing with just a second to spare in the New Formats NL version, although I ended up using a lot of RR manipulation. Since SL's timer is faster, I think this can definitely do with reducing the lemming count.

Psycho 5 - Hmm, seems a lot easier to do on SL, as I'm seeing the same thing as Turrican did with the bashers, where you can get through the OWW much faster than you can on NL due to them getting interrupted and walking up into the wall each time. In a way, I feel a fix isn't needed, as I have a lot of bashers leftover, though I think technically it can be tweaked to maybe save an extra or two with them. Replay attached.

Psycho 8 - Most definitely very little room for error, as I recall in my LP of LPI. From what I remember, in my solution the final builder hit his head at the last split second moment and just barely made it over land. I think I'm definitely in to reduce the precision here.

Psycho 16 - Regardless of whether the level is impossible or not (it's been proven possible), the easiest fix here to reduce the precision/difficulty needed is to simply shorten the length of the lattice section.

In regards to the NTTD levels, the timer is super tight if you allow it to be. My replays here ended up with some time to spare, so therefore it is possible to finish either one with seconds remaining. In particular, I really cheesed my way through with Part II, not even using the bottom right half. Really, they're solve in any way you can.

For Psycho 24, as I said before the best I was able to do if taking the intended route is 14 instead of 15. I don't mind whether the backroute I found is kept in or not, although TBT I lean towards keeping it in just because it's not that much easier than the intended solution. Still, your call, not mine.

Once again, I'm still on my hiatus from the game, so not really seriously playing Lemmings, especially since I've already completed LPI a few times and hence it's not really high priority for me Also a reminder that if you want you can possibly wait for the next SL update to drop before the next LPI patch, as everything will need to be rechecked once it does anyway At the same time, who knows when that will be.