[Neolemmix] Lemmings Surges [Difficulty: Easy - Hard]

[Duuddu]

Lemmings Surges
======================================================================================
It's a small level pack, with only 3 ranks and 5 levels in each rank. Totaling 15 levels.

Ranks:

Easy - Introducing the pack, with some tricks while starting to increase the difficulty for the next rank.
Normal - More tricky and precise, preparing you for the final rank.
Hard - The hardest levels of this pack are here, using a lot of you know about Neolemmix.

======================================================================================

If you complete this level pack, if possible, send me the replays and a feedback for the futures levels pack that I'll do.

How to play:
-If you don't have NeoLemmix, download it from https://www.neolemmix.com/.
-Download this level pack and extract on the paste levels of your NeoLemmix. (if you don't have the paste levels, you can create one).
-Run the Neolemmix.exe and press F2 to access the pack through the level browser.

======================================================================================
Patchnotes:

1.0 Backroutes Fixes:
-Normal 1 - No way out
-Hard 4 - A Marble Level
-Hard 1 - Lemming Facility

1.1 Fixed "Hard 4 - A Marble Level":

After i removed the backroutes of Hard 4 - A Marble Level, I do not run the original replay to check, now i did it and it was impossible with the original solution, I fixed it.

1.2 Removed all possible backroutes from Hard 4- A Marble Level

[kaywhyn]

Hello Duuddu,

I have solved all of the levels in this pack. My replays are attached. Wow, compared to Godlems which I solved just last month, this pack is a huge step up in difficulty! The Easy rank here is way more misleading than it is in Godlems, as the entire rank was quite difficult. Pretty much the only easy level in the rank was Easy 1 - The end, as that one is an X-of-everything, where X is 10, although the save all requirement doesn't make it a complete pushover. The rest of the rank took me probably a good 5-10 minutes each. My favorites in the rank were Easy 2 - To slow, Easy 4 - Streetwise, and Easy 5 - The Altruistic Guy Easy 3 - I know a lemming who can help us is a huge step up in difficulty, probably more than the jump from Easy 1 to Easy 2, and was the hardest for me in the rank. It's obvious what needs to be done, but the execution is quite annoying, especially with the very high RR, and anytime I thought I had the crowd safely contained unfortunately some of the lemmings don't stop and hence the entire crowd spills out. Knowing myself, there's probably an easier way than the solution I used/found.

The rest of the pack was pretty much slow going for me, although the Normal rank probably took me about the same amount of time as the Easy rank. Possibly only slightly longer thanks to Normal 4 - The Overflow Lemmings, which is definitely the hardest in the entire rank, as that one took me the longest in the rank. There's probably far easier solutions, though. Normal 1 - No Way Out is definitely a big step up in difficulty from the end of the Easy rank. My favorite level of the Normal rank was Normal 2 - Lemmings in NOT the ideal scenario The solution is quite clever.

Spoiler

I love how you have to time the bombing of the blocker so that only one goes ahead to the right while everyone else turns to the left and is contained in the miner tunnel at the bottom level. Nicely done here!

For Normal 5 - Hey lem, could you help us?, there's probably an easier way, as in my solution I think the builder got over to the other side just in the nick of time before that one lemming could slip through the cracks

The Hard rank definitely lives up to its name, as pretty much every level in the rank took me a while. Definitely way harder than the Hard rank in Godlems. Hard 2 - Dead Hard Lem was the easiest in the entire rank, as I solved that one quite quick. That one was probably my favorite in the entire rank

Hard 1 - Lemming Facility This one is probably a close second for my favorite level in the rank. Certainly the hardest part is the right hatch with saving everyone, particularly the blocker, where there isn't a really easy way to turn around. This one took me longer than it should had. The only reason why I was able to solve it eventually was because I remember a level from United that uses the exact same trick. I saw the trick with turning the lemming that pushes the button around very quick. Still a difficult level, particularly since a lot of the skill placements aren't obvious.

Hard 3 - Cruel Limits I definitely noticed the parallel with Godlems, where Hard 3 from that pack is also a very big time cruncher. This level certainly did a great job of eliciting a "how in the world do you solve this in just 2 freaking minutes???" Turns out that it isn't as hard as the level appears, it's only hard because of the extremely tight time limit. Fortunately the timing here is much easier than Hard 3 from Godlems.

Hard 4 - A Marble Level This also parallels Hard 4 from Godlems in that it's necessary to fiddle with the RR, although you have to do it several times here. This was the last level that I solved, as I kept jumping around the rank to see if I could solve any levels of the Hard rank. This one took me the longest to figure out and solve. Earlier attempts I kept coming up a skill short. Patching up the gap on the same level as the OWWs is quite tight.

Hard 5 - Lack of Skills and Lemmings Certainly harder than Hard 5 from Godlems. I love how you have to swap the specialists so that you can proceed further in the level.

Spoiler

I managed to figure out the extending the miner with builders very quickly. I was then a dummy with the final 3 skills, as once again I didn't pay attention to the save requirement and kept thinking I needed to save both of them. Even then, it was difficulty to tell where the best place to mine and turn him with the blocker. Where I did it it comes quite close to hitting the steel and stopping the miner.

Even though this pack is much harder than Godlems, these challenges were quite satisfying to figure out Thanks for sharing another pack of yours, and I look forward to seeing more from you in the future if you plan on making more

[Duuddu]

Hello Duuddu,

I have solved all of the levels in this pack. My replays are attached. Wow, compared to Godlems which I solved just last month, this pack is a huge step up in difficulty! The Easy rank here is way more misleading than it is in Godlems, as the entire rank was quite difficult. Pretty much the only easy level in the rank was Easy 1 - The end, as that one is an X-of-everything, where X is 10, although the save all requirement doesn't make it a complete pushover. The rest of the rank took me probably a good 5-10 minutes each. My favorites in the rank were Easy 2 - To slow, Easy 4 - Streetwise, and Easy 5 - The Altruistic Guy Easy 3 - I know a lemming who can help us is a huge step up in difficulty, probably more than the jump from Easy 1 to Easy 2, and was the hardest for me in the rank. It's obvious what needs to be done, but the execution is quite annoying, especially with the very high RR, and anytime I thought I had the crowd safely contained unfortunately some of the lemmings don't stop and hence the entire crowd spills out. Knowing myself, there's probably an easier way than the solution I used/found.

The rest of the pack was pretty much slow going for me, although the Normal rank probably took me about the same amount of time as the Easy rank. Possibly only slightly longer thanks to Normal 4 - The Overflow Lemmings, which is definitely the hardest in the entire rank, as that one took me the longest in the rank. There's probably far easier solutions, though. Normal 1 - No Way Out is definitely a big step up in difficulty from the end of the Easy rank. My favorite level of the Normal rank was Normal 2 - Lemmings in NOT the ideal scenario The solution is quite clever.

Spoiler

I love how you have to time the bombing of the blocker so that only one goes ahead to the right while everyone else turns to the left and is contained in the miner tunnel at the bottom level. Nicely done here!

For Normal 5 - Hey lem, could you help us?, there's probably an easier way, as in my solution I think the builder got over to the other side just in the nick of time before that one lemming could slip through the cracks

The Hard rank definitely lives up to its name, as pretty much every level in the rank took me a while. Definitely way harder than the Hard rank in Godlems. Hard 2 - Dead Hard Lem was the easiest in the entire rank, as I solved that one quite quick. That one was probably my favorite in the entire rank

Hard 1 - Lemming Facility This one is probably a close second for my favorite level in the rank. Certainly the hardest part is the right hatch with saving everyone, particularly the blocker, where there isn't a really easy way to turn around. This one took me longer than it should had. The only reason why I was able to solve it eventually was because I remember a level from United that uses the exact same trick. I saw the trick with turning the lemming that pushes the button around very quick. Still a difficult level, particularly since a lot of the skill placements aren't obvious.

Hard 3 - Cruel Limits I definitely noticed the parallel with Godlems, where Hard 3 from that pack is also a very big time cruncher. This level certainly did a great job of eliciting a "how in the world do you solve this in just 2 freaking minutes???" Turns out that it isn't as hard as the level appears, it's only hard because of the extremely tight time limit. Fortunately the timing here is much easier than Hard 3 from Godlems.

Hard 4 - A Marble Level This also parallels Hard 4 from Godlems in that it's necessary to fiddle with the RR, although you have to do it several times here. This was the last level that I solved, as I kept jumping around the rank to see if I could solve any levels of the Hard rank. This one took me the longest to figure out and solve. Earlier attempts I kept coming up a skill short. Patching up the gap on the same level as the OWWs is quite tight.

Hard 5 - Lack of Skills and Lemmings Certainly harder than Hard 5 from Godlems. I love how you have to swap the specialists so that you can proceed further in the level.

Spoiler

I managed to figure out the extending the miner with builders very quickly. I was then a dummy with the final 3 skills, as once again I didn't pay attention to the save requirement and kept thinking I needed to save both of them. Even then, it was difficulty to tell where the best place to mine and turn him with the blocker. Where I did it it comes quite close to hitting the steel and stopping the miner.

Even though this pack is much harder than Godlems, these challenges were quite satisfying to figure out Thanks for sharing another pack of yours, and I look forward to seeing more from you in the future if you plan on making more

Hello Kaywhyn,

I already watched all your replays and man, how you solve this in less than a day? Congrats!
You use the original solution in almost every levels, but with not so relevant changes in Normal 2 and Hard 5, for example. I fixed some backroutes that I think it's importand (Normal 1 and Hard 4), because change all the level gameplay.
Hard 2 - Dead Hard Lem: was a backroute too, but I'm thinking in how to solve it , I'll attach the original solution here.

Yeah, I tried to make an parallel with Godlems in this pack

Thanks by playing my level pack and give this feedback, I really consider in my next levels that I'll do

[WillLem]

Had a very quick look at the first few levels, and (as with a lot of custom packs) the "Easy" levels get difficult very quickly.

Take a look at this scale to get an idea of what the community have agreed on as an appropriate indication of a pack's difficulty. Since the "Easy" levels that I've seen in your pack thus far generally only have a single intended solution (and only just enough skills to execute that solution), they're probably further towards "Medium" or "Hard".

The tendency is for creators to underestimate the difficulty of their own levels, mostly because they know what the solution is, and are more concerned with enforcing that solution and preventing backroutes than with assessing its actual difficulty. We're all guilty of doing that, and "Easy, non-trivial" levels are in fact very difficult to create.

Maybe this would also be helpful.

[Duuddu]

I understand, but I put the difficulty of the pack based on the easiest level and the hardest one. I think the first level of this pack "Easy 1 - The End." and the second "Easy 2 - To slow" are easy ones. (but how you said, maybe it's just because i made them)
About the sign ranks, It's more a way to rank they between themselves.
But i tried to make it with a great progression of difficulty, but seeing now, i think that if i was reorder the levels position, i would make some changes.

[IchoTolot]

Take a look at this scale to get an idea of what the community have agreed on as an appropriate indication of a pack's difficulty. Since the "Easy" levels that I've seen in your pack thus far generally only have a single intended solution (and only just enough skills to execute that solution), they're probably further towards "Medium" or "Hard".

Wait, wait. Since when have we all agreed on that scale! Nowhere are terms like "Advanced" used anywhere on the board!

We already have a non-documented but widely used scale with what you currently see in the "NL levels" board: Esay - Medium - Hard - Extreme!

Also, "Number of skills" and "Number of assignments" are not very good indicators of difficulty to be honest.

"Required Tricks" and "Entropy" are better indicators there even if you can't simply put a number on them.

[Duuddu]

Removed all possible Backroutes from Hard 4 - A Marble Level

I'll not more modify this pack, only if have some bug or drastic backroutes.

[WillLem]

Wait, wait. Since when have we all agreed on that scale! Nowhere are terms like "Advanced" used anywhere on the board!

We already have a non-documented but widely used scale with what you currently see in the "NL levels" board: Esay - Medium - Hard - Extreme!

After a huge discussion on this topic, there seemed to be agreement that we needed a finer difficulty scale than the one you have mentioned. I notice that your only contribution to the discussion was to point out this same scale - there were several replies pointing out that this scale is insufficient.

Anyway, we need a "documented" scale that's been agreed. It's important, since many content creators woefully misjudge the difficulty of their content (myself included). It's something we need to reach community-wide consensus on, and then encourage new content creators to recognise what's agreed.

Again, the scale you have suggested is insufficient.

Also, "Number of skills" and "Number of assignments" are not very good indicators of difficulty to be honest.

"Required Tricks" and "Entropy" are better indicators there even if you can't simply put a number on them.

Both fair points. Here is the place to have that discussion and, hopefully, contribute to a community-wide understanding of difficulty levels.

I'm not alone in thinking that a lot of custom content is far harder than the creators think it is. That is a fact, and it needs to be addressed.

[kaywhyn]

Resolved Normal 1, Hard 1, and Hard 4. These all seem intended, now. Normal 1 is slightly more challenging, but it is now another favorite level of mine in the rank Hard 1 was more or less the same as the previous solution, just the containment method is different on the right side, as well as some additional things around the exit area. Also, the right side with the blocker is frustrating as it's quite precise and making sure

Spoiler

the basher doesn't also bash away the staircase going to the left after releasing the blocker.

Finally, truthfully the steel block between the OWWs in Hard 4 made the solution much more obvious, as I was quite stumped by the level in v1.1. To be fair, I hadn't had much of a chance to play v1.1 of the level before v1.2 dropped. Also, I didn't notice any change going from v1.0 to v1.1 other than the distance between the OWWs only slightly increased and therefore my previous solution breaks there. Still a great level, though!

[Duuddu]

Resolved Normal 1, Hard 1, and Hard 4. These all seem intended, now. Normal 1 is slightly more challenging, but it is now another favorite level of mine in the rank Hard 1 was more or less the same as the previous solution, just the containment method is different on the right side, as well as some additional things around the exit area. Also, the right side with the blocker is frustrating as it's quite precise and making sure

Spoiler

the basher doesn't also bash away the staircase going to the left after releasing the blocker.

Finally, truthfully the steel block between the OWWs in Hard 4 made the solution much more obvious, as I was quite stumped by the level in v1.1. To be fair, I hadn't had much of a chance to play v1.1 of the level before v1.2 dropped. Also, I didn't notice any change going from v1.0 to v1.1 other than the distance between the OWWs only slightly increased and therefore my previous solution breaks there. Still a great level, though!

I saw your replays, and thank you by playing

About Hard 4, it wasn't the original solution, but I don't know how to fix it yet I'll think in a way to not be so obvious the final part
Normal 1 was the original solution, and Hard 1 was not the original solution too, but the important parts are not forgotten.

At all, nice job and solution by solving this pack

[IchoTolot]

Solved the pack and attached my solutions.

I will post some more detailed feedback after every backroute has been patched out of my replays and all my solutions are intended/acceptable.

[Duuddu]

Solved the pack and attached my solutions.

I will post some more detailed feedback after every backroute has been patched out of my replays and all my solutions are intended/acceptable.

Hello IchoTolot
I had watched all your replays and do not found something too outliner from the original concept. I think your solutions are very great and can be acceptable. (For example, your solution in Hard 4 is like the original, you had  killed a lemming in the start and build at the end, in original solution this order is inverted. But I think your solution is better because do not requer a lot of pixel perfect.)

About the Hard 3, i've decided to let the level how it is, cause Kaywhyn solved it with a nother solution too.

Thank you a lot by playing, and waiting for the detailed feedback.

[IchoTolot]

Here is my feedback.

Easy

1 - 3: Nice easy, but also not trivial levels!

4 - 5: And we already get quite tricky. Great puzzles! Only 5 could use a bit of decoration for my liking.

Medium

1 - 2: These 2 are my favorite levels of the pack!   They look nice and simply, the solution is trcky and they are just all around good levels!

3: Also a good one, but let's say I've seen this quite a few times before.

4: Apart from 1 thing later, this was the hardest level of the pack. There are quite a lot of possibilities here on how things could work out which make it difficult.

5: This one was easier again, but also not totally trivial. I also like the lok of the level.

Hard

1 - Nice solution, nice trick, buuuut.....

Spoiler

let's just say changing the right part up just a little bit and giving an additional builder so that the whole thing isn't exactly pixel precise and only works in this certain way would greatly benefit the level.
I had the solution down after a little while, but was one builder short. I realized it needs to be this way and somehow need to squeeze out a builder on the right side. After tinkering quite a bit on it I finally found the right configuration that just works - reaching the top + not bashing through the stairs. This precision that is avoidable makes the level unnessesarily frustraiting to execute.
Otherwise it has quite a nice solution though!

2 - 3: A bit easier again, but I also liked the solutions!

4: My favorite level from the hard rank. Not the most difficult, but it play out nicely!

5: The last level was tricky, but I found the solution quite early due to the limits the skillset and the terrain. You can lock down quite a few things here.


Overall I would say especially in the visual departement the pack is a step forward from the previous one! Solutions-wise except of the one unnessesarily precise level you again have some very nice puzzles in here!

[Duuddu]

Here is my feedback.

Easy

1 - 3: Nice easy, but also not trivial levels!

4 - 5: And we already get quite tricky. Great puzzles! Only 5 could use a bit of decoration for my liking.

Medium

1 - 2: These 2 are my favorite levels of the pack!   They look nice and simply, the solution is trcky and they are just all around good levels!

3: Also a good one, but let's say I've seen this quite a few times before.

4: Apart from 1 thing later, this was the hardest level of the pack. There are quite a lot of possibilities here on how things could work out which make it difficult.

5: This one was easier again, but also not totally trivial. I also like the lok of the level.

Hard

1 - Nice solution, nice trick, buuuut.....

Spoiler

let's just say changing the right part up just a little bit and giving an additional builder so that the whole thing isn't exactly pixel precise and only works in this certain way would greatly benefit the level.
I had the solution down after a little while, but was one builder short. I realized it needs to be this way and somehow need to squeeze out a builder on the right side. After tinkering quite a bit on it I finally found the right configuration that just works - reaching the top + not bashing through the stairs. This precision that is avoidable makes the level unnessesarily frustraiting to execute.
Otherwise it has quite a nice solution though!

2 - 3: A bit easier again, but I also liked the solutions!

4: My favorite level from the hard rank. Not the most difficult, but it play out nicely!

5: The last level was tricky, but I found the solution quite early due to the limits the skillset and the terrain. You can lock down quite a few things here.


Overall I would say especially in the visual departement the pack is a step forward from the previous one! Solutions-wise except of the one unnessesarily precise level you again have some very nice puzzles in here!

Thank you by the feedback! I always use it on my next Level Packs