Vacuum Pack - my first level pack. Feedback welcome!

[Dr. Slater]

Hi! I'm working on my first level pack, and would like to get some feedback!

Vacuum Pack

Format: New NL
Difficulty: Medium
Graphic Set: Original Lemmings / ONML
Skill Set: Original Lemmings (almost exclusively)

The levels are pretty compact, and most of them fit inside the frame in standard zoom. The emphasis is on smooth organization and coordination of the crowd and trailblazer(s), rather than spectacular scenery. The skillsets are kept pretty conservative. All levels are individually designed, except level 5, which is based on "Anxiety" from Genesis.

** Levels 1, 2, 6 and 7 have been modified **
**Made further modifications to level 7. Attached files updated **


Thank you for your useful feedback. There were certainly a few backroutes here and there, as I expected. Sometimes I've added a few redundant skills with the intention of causing confusion, not realizing that it created alternative solutions instead...

[kaywhyn]

Hi Dr. Slater,

Welcome to the forums! I finished solving your demo pack. Here are my replays. This is not a bad attempt at a first pack so far. However, there are some peculiarities that I've noticed. For example, the color of the builder bricks don't match what they're normally for a tileset. On all levels, they all default to a dark brown-greyish color and anytime a lemming lays down a brick it's a purple-pinkish kind of color. I found this odd. Whereas, in fire tileset levels, the builder bricks should be blue, etc. Similarly, the color of the OWAs are not the default in level 7. I think they're supposed to be yellow? Certainly a much better color than what they are currently on the wall in that level. Maybe you did some theme mixing or something? I'm not sure.

Whereas for the 8 levels you currently have, definitely some great ideas/puzzles here. This demo seems to indicate that you are aware of the standard of not having time limits on levels unless they're to block backroutes. I certainly don't mind time limits, as I'm kind of a traditionalist when it comes to the game, as well as how I love numbers/math. However, there's absolutely no reason for them on the first 3 levels, especially since the RRs are locked and you're always guaranteed to finish on time.

In my opinion, level 5 was the hardest due to the very strict time limit. I kept running out of time on several earlier attempts that would had worked but they unfortunately take several seconds too long.

Interestingly, I thought level 2 was impossible, but turns out that I didn't go about the level correctly. It's extremely tight on the timing, although

Spoiler

I love how the miner is used just for delaying purposes until the exit unlocks and he can exit

I like the concept in level 3, but the execution is very annoying, particularly since the builders have to be pixel precise and on the dot. I would advise widening the spacing between the bars to make it clearer and also to provide some leeway in the skill assignments.

Among the non-timed levels, level 7 was my favorite It was also a difficult level, and somehow I feel my solution isn't intended, especially since I have a builder leftover.

Finally, I'm almost certain that my solution to level 6 is a backroute, and somehow I feel my solution isn't quite intended in level 8 as well.

Once again, not a bad attempt at a first level pack and I look forward to seeing the full release of the entire pack in the future This does raise a few questions, though.

How many ranks and how many levels per difficulty are you planning?

What exactly is this pack about? I know you already described a bit of it, but a more detailed description would be nice. It's great that you provided some pics of some levels that are/will be in the pack These certainly help in possibly getting more people to play the pack. For examples, you can look at the level pack release topics on the NL levels board. 

[Proxima]

However, there are some peculiarities that I've noticed. For example, the color of the builder bricks don't match what they're normally for a tileset. On all levels, they all default to a dark brown-greyish color and any time a lemming lays down a brick it's a purple-pinkish kind of color. I found this odd. Whereas, in fire tileset levels, the builder bricks should be blue, etc. Similarly, the color of the OWAs are not the default in level 7. I think they're supposed to be yellow? Certainly a much better color than what they are currently on the wall in that level. Maybe you did some theme mixing or something? I'm not sure.

This is because, in all levels of this pack, the "THEME" line is blank instead of having a theme selected.

[Dr. Slater]

Hi Dr. Slater

Welcome to the forums! I finished solving your demo pack. Here are my replays. This is not a bad attempt at a first pack so far.

Thank you for your very thorough and constructive feedback!

You certainly found a few backroutes! For example, I need to extent that fire trap on level 1!

However, there are some peculiarities that I've noticed. For example, the color of the builder bricks don't match what they're normally for a tileset. On all levels, they all default to a dark brown-greyish color and anytime a lemming lays down a brick it's a purple-pinkish kind of color.

Was wondering about this as well - I believed I had accidentally changed some game settings. (But Proxima's explanation makes perfect sense).

Whereas for the 8 levels you currently have, definitely some great ideas/puzzles here. This demo seems to indicate that you are aware of the standard of not having time limits on levels unless they're to block backroutes. I certainly don't mind time limits, as I'm kind of a traditionalist when it comes to the game, as well as how I love numbers/math. However, there's absolutely no reason for them on the first 3 levels, especially since the RRs are locked and you're always guaranteed to finish on time.

Actually, all but one level originally had time limits during development. When the RR is locked at 99 I don't think setting a time limit hurts either (As you can probably guess, "It's Hero Time!" is one of my favorite levels)...

In my opinion, level 5 was the hardest due to the very strict time limit. I kept running out of time on several earlier attempts that would had worked but they unfortunately take several seconds too long.

Spoiler

The intended solution requires pretty tight coordination of the two main trailblazers, as the title implies. I once managed to finish with more than 10 seconds to spare.

Interestingly, I thought level 2 was impossible, but turns out that I didn't go about the level correctly. It's extremely tight on the timing

Spoiler

With the RR being locked, the challenge is just to delay the very first lemming out of the entrance, and to save the pre-placed one. The original purpuse of the miner is actually to make the pre-placed lemming survive the fall by shaving off a few pixels, thus slightly shortening the fall, while the floater is intended to delay the first lemming

I like the concept in level 3, but the execution is very annoying, particularly since the builders have to be pixel precise and on the dot. I would advise widening the spacing between the bars to make it clearer and also to provide some leeway in the skill assignments.

Spoiler

I understand your reasoning, but many of my levels, as well as others I've found in this comunity, rely heavily on features like skill shadows and frame-by-frame steps. It would've been a hopeless level in the original game, but given the nice features of NL it works out fine, IMO.

Among the non-timed levels, level 7 was my favorite It was also a difficult level, and somehow I feel my solution isn't intended, especially since I have a builder leftover.

Spoiler

This too had a pretty tight time limit, which I removed just before posting. For testing purposes I think unlimited time invites more "free-styling", which your solution certainly demonstrates! Originally, the bottom floor was also all-metal, which I now see would've prevented at least one backroute (digging/bashing past the trap, etc).

Finally, I'm almost certain that my solution to level 6 is a backroute, and somehow I feel my solution isn't quite intended in level 8 as well.

Spoiler

Level 6 is definitely a backroute, yes. Clever (and unintended) use of that platformer! Somehow those lemmings feel no pain while bathing their feet in magma... (Should've checked the trigger-zones more carefully)...

Your solution to level 8 is actually basically as intended. I just send two climbers immediately, and the third one shortly thereafter. My method is just more heavy on simultaneous action, that's all

Once again, not a bad attempt at a first level pack and I look forward to seeing the full release of the entire pack in the future This does raise a few questions, though.

How many ranks and how many levels per difficulty are you planning?

What exactly is this pack about? I know you already described a bit of it, but a more detailed description would be nice. It's great that you provided some pics of some levels that are/will be in the pack These certainly help in possibly getting more people to play the pack. For examples, you can look at the level pack release topics on the NL levels board.

I still haven't decided all that, TBH. That depends on how many new ideas I can come up with. This community seems like the perfect source of inspiration, and I'll certainly look into some other packs and discussions.

Thank you again for a very constructive reply!

[Dr. Slater]

This is because, in all levels of this pack, the "THEME" line is blank instead of having a theme selected.

Aaah, so that's why! Thank you! I've been picking and mixing a few pieces from various original styles, so I figured there was no reason not to leave the Theme-field blank...

[ericderkovits]

ok, I solved the levels. Pretty tricky levels.
a few of the levels I had barely finished on time due to time limits.

[Dr. Slater]

ok, I solved the levels. Pretty tricky levels.
a few of the levels I had barely finished on time due to time limits.

Thank you! Your replays brought new problems to my attention. Neat trick on level 1 - I've modified that pillar, among other things.

When the lemmings are marching in close formation (RR 99), the time limit is just to create a little tension... Did you watch my replay of level 5? I think the pretty tight time limit makes sense, as it forces the use of smooth coordination.

[kaywhyn]

Resolved the levels that have changed. For future reference, make sure to make a new post anytime there's an update, because if you just edit the OP, there's a very good chance that people won't know that an update dropped. On the homepage, the site does not notify that a post has been modified, only if there's a new post. I just happened to check the topic and noticed the last edit that was made to the OP a few hours ago.

Also, while not required, a changelog of what actually changed in the levels would be great as well. This can be great for bookkeepping, especially for the designer so that he/she can see how many versions a particular level has gone through, as well as provide some guidance in helping a level maker improve with future levels I've only made 3 levels myself so far, particularly since I prefer to solve rather than make levels, but I find changelogs very helpful for every update I released for my levels, and will definitely be using/providing them if I ever end up making a level pack in the future.

Level 1 & 2 - These should be intended now.

Level 6 - How's this solution?

Level 7 - Still remains the hardest of these 8 levels. This one took a while. Even then, this solution feels somehow not intended.

Level 8 - It's pretty much the exact same solution, except one really needs to send out the climbers very closely spaced to one another. Definitely don't feel that levels always have to finish with just a second left. If anything, this will often cause players to rage just because they have to keep on rewinding to find the right timing. Yes, NL may have rewinding and framestepping, but these aren't the main reasons why time limits should be used. Most importantly, don't feel surprised if some of the experts here tell you to cull the timer on this level, as it really doesn't eliminate any glaring backroutes at all. Not that I see, anyway. Whereas for me, I already mentioned that I don't mind time limits.

Actually, all but one level originally had time limits during development. When the RR is locked at 99 I don't think setting a time limit hurts either

Definitely nothing wrong with this, just keep in mind that the experts and almost anyone will tell you to "cull the timers" on those levels, as they don't add anything or eliminate any backroutes in these 3 levels specifically. I'm one of the few who doesn't mind time limits, so they're fine in my eyes, but the majority of the people will say to take out the timer.

Spoiler

I understand your reasoning, but many of my levels, as well as others I've found in this comunity, rely heavily on features like skill shadows and frame-by-frame steps. It would've been a hopeless level in the original game, but given the nice features of NL it works out fine, IMO.

I would still ease the precision and provide more leeway, as even with skill shadows it's still quite difficult to tell at a glance whether one has placed the builders correctly until you let the lemming fall. Or at least provide floaters so that you don't have to widen the gaps.

Again, these are great puzzle ideas and not a bad attempt at a first pack/demo, but there's certainly some room for improvement. I definitely can see that the eventual pack has great potential! Enjoy your stay here and feel free to ask for some assistance should you ever require it. Thanks again for sharing your short demo

[Dr. Slater]

Resolved the levels that have changed. For future reference, make sure to make a new post anytime there's an update, because if you just edit the OP, there's a very good chance that people won't know that an update dropped. On the homepage, the site does not notify that a post has been modified, only if there's a new post. I just happened to check the topic and noticed the last edit that was made to the OP a few hours ago.

Also, while not required, a changelog of what actually changed in the levels would be great as well. This can be great for bookkeepping, especially for the designer so that he/she can see how many versions a particular level has gone through, as well as provide some guidance in helping a level maker improve with future levels I've only made 3 levels myself so far, particularly since I prefer to solve rather than make levels, but I find changelogs very helpful for every update I released for my levels, and will definitely be using/providing them if I ever end up making a level pack in the future.

Ok, that makes sense! At least I've kept the old screenshots...

Level 1 & 2 - These should be intended now.

That's right.

Level 6 - How's this solution?

Not quite as intended, but definitely much closer. Don't feel the need to modify this one (unless more backroutes were to surface...)

Level 7 - Still remains the hardest of these 8 levels. This one took a while. Even then, this solution feels somehow not intended.

I quickly realized that the time limit is a bit tight, I'll probably remove it altogether. Your solution actually shaves off quite a few seconds. I might implement a workaround, should I get any bright ideas. But your solution certainly takes some skill - perhaps more so than the intended solution. Your alternative path doesn't bother me.

Level 8 - It's pretty much the exact same solution, except one really needs to send out the climbers very closely spaced to one another. Definitely don't feel that levels always have to finish with just a second left.

Ok, I'll take that into consideration. The intended solution has the exact same elements, just in a slightly different order.

Spoiler

I have the climber/glider bash through to the crowd immediately after having built those two bridges near the bottom of the pit. I also assign the last climber/floater skill to the last lem just as he enters the level. He will then land just as the bridge is getting finished, and immediately climb out of the pit. This way I finish with 8 - 10 seconds left - still pretty tight, though...

I would still ease the precision and provide more leeway, as even with skill shadows it's still quite difficult to tell at a glance whether one has placed the builders correctly until you let the lemming fall. Or at least provide floaters so that you don't have to widen the gaps.

Spoiler

I just hold the shift button while the cursor hovers over the lemming - this projects an extended skill shadow which also shows exactly where he will fall after having completed the bridge. (Your comment suggest that you may be unaware of this feature). Also, floaters would simply land safely next to the bars and walk straight into the gaps, which I think would make it too easy.

Again, these are great puzzle ideas and not a bad attempt at a first pack/demo, but there's certainly some room for improvement. I definitely can see that the eventual pack has great potential! Enjoy your stay here and feel free to ask for some assistance should you ever require it. Thanks again for sharing your short demo

Thank you! I'll try to come up with some more ideas and puzzles. Your feedback is very useful

[Dr. Slater]

Started looking for ways to speed up level 7, so I made some modifications.

Added 1 climber and 1 basher
Removed 1 digger
Modified the steel pillars
Added a compartment to allow for a more concentrated crowd

Managed to finish in less than two minutes. I now think it runs pretty smoothly, with overlapping tasks being performed in different areas.

Spoiler

My preferred method with this revision still includes a kamikaze faller, but instead of sending the first climber all the way up, he now turns around when entering the hole created by the blast, and builds a bridge from there to lessen the fall.

Will update the OP shortly.

[kaywhyn]

Level 7 resolved. Maybe a slight backroute?

Ok, that makes sense! At least I've kept the old screenshots...

Well, generally what I do is I keep the previous versions and I simply increase the version number by 1 when I save. In this way, even if I don't provide screenshots, I can at least view previous level versions in the editor

Spoiler

I just hold the shift button while the cursor hovers over the lemming - this projects an extended skill shadow which also shows exactly where he will fall after having completed the bridge. (Your comment suggest that you may be unaware of this feature). Also, floaters would simply land safely next to the bars and walk straight into the gaps, which I think would make it too easy.

Ah, yea, actually I'm definitely aware of the projection shadow, I just haven't used it or I'm not aware of how to activate it, mostly because I haven't seen any difference in what's actually shown and hence I wondered if it even works

Thank you! I'll try to come up with some more ideas and puzzles. Your feedback is very useful

My pleasure. I try to be helpful wherever I can. You will come to know me as someone who gives very detailed feedback on practically any level pack I solve. It mostly stems from how I'm a very detailed person myself

[Dr. Slater]

Level 7 resolved. Maybe a slight backroute?

Spoiler

Just somewhat different than my method, but I was aware that there are a few options throughout the level. I find that blasting a faller and immediately sending a climber towards the lower floor is pretty efficient.

My pleasure. I try to be helpful wherever I can. You will come to know me as someone who gives very detailed feedback on practically any level pack I solve. It mostly stems from how I'm a very detailed person myself

I can tell After trying some other levels from this community, I might have to reconsider my estimates of the difficulty levels. Mine are pretty much cakewalks compared to the toughest ones I've seen...

Will be AFK for a few days now.

I've updated level 6:

Removed 1 miner and 1 builder
Some layout modifications

[ericderkovits]

here's my solution to level 6. Even had 1 builder left. Maybe a Talisman.

[kaywhyn]

Level 6 resolved. Definitely harder now.

I can tell After trying some other levels from this community, I might have to reconsider my estimates of the difficulty levels. Mine are pretty much cakewalks compared to the toughest ones I've seen...

That seems to be the trend with the New Formats NL level packs, where they are often very difficult packs. There are some easy packs, but there aren't as many, and most of them tend to be for Old Formats NL. Even then, they're still no slouch or complete pushovers. Because the easy and medium packs seem to be lacking, there seems to be community agreement that there needs to be more easy packs, especially for those who might not be as experienced. That being said, your levels still pack some punch, although to be fair this is only an 8 level demo. However, if your levels are already this difficult, I can't imagine how difficult the eventual pack will be as a whole. At the same time, you might be right about your levels so far being much tamer compared to some of the most difficult levels currently found in very high difficulty packs. It's likely also due to how you're mostly restricting yourself to the classic 8 skills, although as I have seen even levels that make use of just those skills can be quite difficult. Nepsterlems is a very good example of that, and one which I haven't quite completely solved yet.

In case it hasn't been made clear, I don't mind levels of any difficulty. I'm willing to sit through hard levels and be stumped for however long it takes until I get them solved. You might have seen that I have managed to solve some of the most difficult level packs, including United, SEB Lems, and Lemmings Plus Alpha. Of course, these were still hard and long struggles for me, but I eventually made it through to the end. While the hard levels are definitely more towards my liking and style of solving (I love a good challenge), I do suffer from burnout, mentally and physically, solving a lot of hard levels, and hence it's definitely a welcome sight for me whenever an easy level or a bunch of them appear. Even I need a break from solving hard levels here and there

[Dr. Slater]

here's my solution to level 6. Even had 1 builder left. Maybe a Talisman.

Thanks! I just got back home, watched the replay only now. This is very close to the intended solution, but I figured the distance between the two brick pillars was probably too long that is could be closed with just one bridge, and still be possible to carve through with one basher. My early attempts would fail if the platform (built from close to the top of the brigde) was too high, so I figured the empty space underneath a full-length bridge would probably be too big (i.e. would make the basher stop). I was planning to test this, but it slipped my mind.

Don't get me wrong, you sure found a perfect solution, but I think the game mechanics sometimes allow for too wide a latitude in its algorithms. So I'll probably increase the distance between the pillars a bit...