[SUG][PLAYER][UI] Different shades of pink for overlapping trigger areas in CPM

[Strato Incendus]

Having seen several possible combinations of overlapping trigger areas now that can cause confusion - updraft and trap, water and trap, water and exit, updraft and exit etc. - I was wondering once again whether it would be possible to have the same type of "shading" to the pink of overlapping trigger areas in the player that we already have in the editor.

Meaning: In the NeoLemmix editor, the more trigger areas overlap in one spot, the darker the shade of pink gets. In CPM in the player, however, it's always just the same shade of pink, no matter how many trigger areas are stacked on top of each other.

This can prevent CPM from doing what its supposed to do: Clearly showing the location of all objects and preventing anything from being (intentionally or accidentally) hidden.

Sometimes, puzzles require such overlap of trigger areas, like updrafts in front of exits, or traps inside water areas or updrafts etc.
I don't think these are unfair things to do in general.
More importantly, though, even if such trigger combinations were unfair, or are unfair in your opinion, then that's even more of a reason why CPM, as our standard "trolling-prevention tool", should be able to reveal such setups in a level and clearly make the objects overlapping in one spot easily distinguishable from one another.


Since this is not a physics change, but just one referring to the user interface, I think now is still the right time to bring this up.

[ericderkovits]

I think this is brought up because Colorful Arty raged again at Encore 13 and it's exit trigger area In Lemmings World Tour(in his LP of LWT), but it also seems the same in New Formats where it's difficult to see the exit trigger point for the level.

[namida]

Since this is not a physics change, but just one referring to the user interface, I think now is still the right time to bring this up.

Correct. I'll give some thoughts to the merits (quick guess: it's worthwhile) / possible questions (in particular: it may be more reasonable to just have "one" vs "multiple" instead of increasingly-dark shades) later, but just confirming that this is definitely a UI suggestion and not a physics one.

[namida]

Okay so,

Firstly - overlapping in that case is fair, as long as both objects are cleary visible and identifiable (without CPM).

Beyond that, pretty much as I said above - having only the "one" or "multiple" shades, instead of increasing darkness for each additional object, is likely to be more feasible; and I definitely think this is a worthwhile suggestion.

[Strato Incendus]

Thanks for confirming the "category" of this suggestion, and for being open to the idea, namida!

Firstly - overlapping in that case is fair, as long as both objects are cleary visible and identifiable (without CPM)

I agree this should be the case in principle, but (as ericderkovits correctly identified) the main case when this causes trouble is when it comes to some type of "water" object:

- normal water areas can cover another object, especially if it's a larger one - or, if you make that other object "overwrite", like an exit, it in turn covers the water, thereby making it visually unclear that the water extends "behind" that object

- Colorful Arty's updraft areas in his Underwater tileset are "coloured" updrafts, because they are also supposed to simulate water, but water lemmings can fall through, just more slowly. Those coloured areas can also end up covering stuff or, in the reverse case, be covered by other stuff. In Underwater levels, these updrafts often need to make up the entire background of the level. That makes it possible to infer from context that the updraft probably also extends behind other objects, but that doesn't change the fact that it's not clearly visible.


I've used both in Lemmings World Tour. But in general, given somewhat recent discussions about the limited applications the Swimmer has in the eyes of some, I'm always interested in finding new creative purposes for under-used skills. Thus, I have a certain ambition to create new levels where navigating lemmings through water areas is an integral part of the puzzle.

Especially with the new Laser Blaster, its ability to modify terrain from a distance, and even shoot through water areas in doing so, allows to create sloped paths (including sloped ceilings) for Swimmers where there are none.
This means it will also be necessary to block certain paths with traps, fire objects etc., because otherwise a Laser Blaster could easily create Swimmer backroutes.

But of course, I don't want these levels to become "accidentally unfair", just because some trigger areas (that of the water and something else) happen to overlap and then become more difficult to distinguish from each other.

[WillLem]

a Laser Blaster could easily create Swimmer backroutes.

Easily?? I'd like to see that in action!

[Proxima]

But of course, I don't want these levels to become "accidentally unfair", just because some trigger areas (that of the water and something else) happen to overlap and then become more difficult to distinguish from each other.

I think an important guideline is that a level should never require CPM to interpret what the layout is communicating. I've watched Arty's video, and the level in question has an exit half submerged by water, so it's not at all clear from the visible portion of the graphic where the trigger area would be (unless you are familiar with that particular exit, which, again, one shouldn't assume). That is the real problem, not the fact that CPM doesn't help with revealing the trigger area (although the latter is what turns it from "annoying" to "rage-inducing").

[Strato Incendus]

so it's not at all clear from the visible portion of the graphic where the trigger area would be (unless you are familiar with that particular exit, which, again, one shouldn't assume)

Yes, this is something which, in one of my comments under the video, I acknowledged for the level as a single entity - but dismissed for this specific case in the context of the pack as a whole, since Lemmings World Tour features this particular exit so often, due to many of the Geography levels using it, that by the time the player reaches this level, they should be perfectly capable of recognizing this exit and remembering that it's a pretty high one.

Exits being partly covered by something (which means they're not "hidden" because their location is still visible) are still a common phenomenon. Usually they're partly covered by terrain, to allow a lemming to walk past them at some point, or to enforce the usage of an additional skill. In case of an exit being partly covered by water, the skill which has its usage enforced is the Stoner.

And at that point, whatever of two objects is displayed on front inevitably covers up at least parts of the object in the background. Meaning, either the exit partly covers the water, so that it's no longer clear how far the water extends, or the water partly covers the exit, so that it's no longer clear how far the exit extends.

[namida]

And at that point, whatever of two objects is displayed on front inevitably covers up at least parts of the object in the background. Meaning, either the exit partly covers the water, so that it's no longer clear how far the water extends, or the water partly covers the exit, so that it's no longer clear how far the exit extends.

Take a look at the first attached screenshot. I would say the first two exits (from the left) are fair, whereas the third is not.

If you don't understand why, take a look at the second attached screenshot, which has trigger area display enabled.

[namida]

Implemented in commit 6d546a7.