[SUG][PLAYER] Object Suggestion: Vortex

[WillLem]

A Vortex would be a special kind of exit intended for use in midair. Any lemming which hits its trigger exits the level regardless of how they got there, and counts towards the save total.

Seems a good way to go given the can of worms that's been opened by the recent "Midair exit rules" topic, and also would help to keep things simple.

i.e. If a level has a regular exit, then regular rules (whatever they turn out to be after all this has been resolved) apply. If a level has a vortex, then anything goes

[IchoTolot]

I like this idea!

It could be a better solution to the whole midair discussion.

Normal exits would then require solid ground to exit. This just sucks everything inside its trigger area into it.

Only the visual aspect would need to treated carefully. The vortex must come through and the exit part must come through.

[WillLem]

It may also make sense for it to have a circular trigger area; not sure if that's possible.

I'm glad you like the idea, Icho

[WillLem]

Graphic concept, based on the Crystal tileset colour scheme.

The "Vortex" aspect is of course its circular shape and swirling effect. The "Exit" aspect is made clear by the familiar "sunny meadow" theme on the other side.

This particular image would be somewhat difficult to animate, but it hopefully offers some inspiration and gives an idea of the possibilities - simpler versions could of course be produced:



Note the somewhat symbolic "silver lining" on the clouds



Some physics suggestions:

• Circular trigger area if possible, in keeping with its shape and encourages custom designs to follow suit. The trigger area should then be placed in the object's centre, ideally.
• I like the idea of it being lockable - there could be a "dormant" animation which then explodes into a full-on open swirl when the vortex is unlocked - however, it could be argued that these should not be lockable like regular exits.
• They definitely shouldn't have lem count limits; this would negate the purpose of it, which is to be indiscriminate and all-encompassing.
• A different "Exiter" animation, to make it even clearer that it's a Vortex and not a regular exit - I'd suggest the lem gently spinning into it. They'd still say "yippee!", of course. As well as being another non-CPM identifier, it would also act as a helpful signal to the player in cases where designers use the object in place of a regular exit.

[Simon]

The usual method to simulate direct drop is
* normal exit,
* terrain underneath,
* cover with updraft.

In level design, what problems does the vortex solve that the exit-updraft combo doesn't solve?

-- Simon

[Dullstar]

If the vortex can be locked at all, lem limits just like regular exits makes sense - if you think about it, a lem limit exit is basically like a locked exit, but instead of unlocking after a condition is met, it locks after a condition is met.

[WillLem]

In level design, what problems does the vortex solve that the exit-updraft combo doesn't solve?

Shimmier's "Reacher" phase, Jumpers, Floaters and Gliders being able to exit. The current proposal is to remove these behaviours (and possibly others) from regular exits.

Further to that, the Vortex is being proposed as an exit specifically for midair use. The exact benefits/physics of this have yet to be fleshed out really, it's just a concept at this point.

If the vortex can be locked at all, lem limits just like regular exits makes sense - if you think about it, a lem limit exit is basically like a locked exit, but instead of unlocking after a condition is met, it locks after a condition is met.

You're right; I didn't think of it that way. I'm probably 75/25 in favour of "not lockable"; the main idea of the Vortex is that it's all-encompassing, indiscriminate and unlimited.

[WillLem]

How it could differ from a Portal:

It's probably worth making Portals circular as well, in order to differentiate them from regular Teleporters.

The question then arises of how to distinguish a Portal from a Vortex.

Some ideas:

• Make Portals smaller (i.e. only just bigger than a lemming) and Vortexes bigger (at least the size of the ohno_bubble exit, and beyond).
• Give Portals a solid edge (i.e. like a Stargate) and leave Vortexes edgeless (or vice versa).
• Vortexes have a "sunny meadow" (or similar) motif on the "other side", as per regular orig/ohno exits. Portals have no such theme.
• Encourage a generic graphic for Portals which simply get recoloured rather than redesigned between styles.

Note: I'll get on some concepts later today and try to get something uploaded for discussion purposes.

[IchoTolot]

I think the big question we need to ask first is:

- Do we really want the portal as well? This should be asked first as we may end up including another object than the portal inseat. If we do not end up including the portal, then we don't need to invest time to make clear guidelines between them. Also, the portal may not need to be a portal, but rather something else.
I don't say I am for or against the portal!

- If yes, we need to invest the time and create clear guidelines for both: Vortex and Portal. This ensures they won't get mixed up - I like the idea of the vortex being a rough rift that just sucks everything inside and the portal having a clear border, but that's just a first rough thought.

Vortexes have a "sunny meadow" (or similar) motif on the "other side", as per regular orig/ohno exits. Portals have no such theme.

This could also be a good idea. We may end up needing several differences though.

- After that we can create more refined graphical prototypes and discuss the exact aspects of their workings.

[WillLem]

OK, here are some graphic concepts for both Portal and Vortex. First up is Portal, since it's a strong contender for inclusion anyway:



(Link to full video of Portal Test with sound)

And now for the proposed Vortex:



(Link to full video of Vortex Test with sound)

Things to note:

• The Portal is much smaller
• The Vortex has a "sunny meadow" theme on the other side of it, familiar to existing exit graphics
• The Vortex has its own exiting animation
• The Portal is "solid" and "man-made" looking, whereas the Vortex has more of an ethereal, "naturally-existing-in-space" quality to it
• Both are circular and swirly, but the type of swirls used is different

[IchoTolot]

Thoughts from discord:

Portal:

- I am getting lemmings revolution vibes from the portal.

- If it doesn't work both ways: Marking it with "in" and "out" could be beneficial

- I think the portal would benefit from a little stand that holds the outer ring at the bottom. It does make it look more "lem-made". This would be a great addition.


Vortex:

- For a concept it's good, but I think the vortex is little bit too big currently though. A bit smaller and I think it's good.


In summary I like both initial concepts though even if there is still room for improvements or other different concepts. 

[WillLem]

For lockable/limitable Vortexes, or if people just want a generally more "Exit-looking" Vortex, I would suggest something along these lines:

[namida]

Circular trigger area if possible, in keeping with its shape and encourages custom designs to follow suit. The trigger area should then be placed in the object's centre, ideally.

This is not going to happen.

[Strato Incendus]

Ooh, for portals like in Lemmings Revolution I definitely like these ideas!

As a special type of exit, meanwhile, it seems redundant. If you want to create an exit which you can access from all sides while still allowing to exit immediately, you could just place the exit somewhere at the edge of the screen and place such a portal in the original intended position of the exit instead. That way, any lemming who jumps into the portal from any direction would be directly teleported into the exit. (I've used this "teleport into exit" method with regular teleporters on several of my own levels before, e.g. "Mission impossible" from Pit Lems, or "Crazy train" from Lemmings World Tour.)

[WillLem]

Smaller pink Vortex, plus a new blue one:



Introducing the Vortexit (this one makes quite a nice exit graphic anyway ):

Circular trigger area

This is not going to happen.

Fair enough

As a special type of exit, meanwhile, it seems redundant. If you want to create an exit which you can access from all sides while still allowing to exit immediately, you could just place the exit somewhere at the edge of the screen and place such a portal in the original intended position of the exit instead.

Meh... this seems like too much of a "workaround" solution. I mean, yes, it works, but it just means more stuff on the screen. Good shout for if the Vortex gets rejected as an idea, though!